No my entire point for posting is to open a civil debate. On RT, so far he's proven to be a marginally successful game manager. It is hard to rail on a rookie who has upside and potential. There's nothing good that can come from that. In the previous discussions I was never down on RT. I was questioning whether the decision to start him was a wise one. If you have nothing past 12 year old stupidity to pass on, hit that little button ....upper right...says "logout Phin"

Click here to learn how to add YouTube Videos to your phpBB forum

For all my homer friends....

So we've gone from anyone who disagrees is not objective to anyone who disagrees with criticism is simply a homer.

I bet I know who isn't winning a popularity contest in this fan forum!!

Who the hell cares.

_________________

I was questioning whether the decision to start him was a wise one.

Time will tell, but Moore might have thrown a pick/fumbled the ball at the worst time. Hitory repeats itself to often around Fin land.

Who the hell cares.

Hey Scrooge, it was a joke to a friend.

Lets move on guys....




Benny Sapp......

_________________
RIP Tom
RIP Tone

Could have...or he could've had a game like he had last year against Oakland. Over the course of the season I believe Miami would've won more games with either Garrard or Moore. The hope is we sacrifice a few wins this year for future success

ummm, check your boy davis out week 1 and 2 of this year and then insert foot in mouth.

don't tell Junkie that. Or anyone else that wants to hate Ireland for the move.

don't tell Junkie that. Or anyone else that wants to hate Ireland for the move.

Come on Swerve, he hasn't learned the system yet, give him time. LOL

Ya, players never have to learn systems. Right.

_________________

Not if his name is Davis or Moore. LOL. Hey I put it out there...I deserve it. Davis is pretty contrite guy...maybe even way introverted. This could've been a huge blow to his confidence. Grandmama needs to talk up his game a little.

I'm not guaranteeing his future success in Indy. But I'm not going to judge him 2 games into his new franchise after being traded on the stroke of midnight before the regular season.

_________________

i'll put this out there, if you're a corner and lack confidence, or have your confidence broken easily......good luck in this league. Playing corner is all mental and that's why i would not want Vontae on my team. Thats a man's position. Not much glory at corner and you need a short memory.

You're assuming he can't put it behind him as the season progresses.

BTW Namdi Asamougha looked lost in the Eagles defense when he first arrived. I suppose he can't play the MAN'S POSITION anymore .... oh wait.

_________________

I think Vontae will progress and get better as the season rolls along and he learns the system. That said, I don't think he'll ever develop into the shutdown corner we had envisioned when we drafted him. Don't get me wrong, Vontae is a solid player, he'll play a long time in the NFL. Guys with his skillset will always have a job. But I just don't think he'll ever be an elite cornerback. Comparing him to Asamougha isn't a fair comparison because Asamougha is an elite cornerback, Davis is not.

I brought up Namdi to illustrate that it's naive to start calling Vontae a failure in 2 games. The guy was traded on the eve of the start of the regular season. My point was that Namdi struggled in Philly to get adjusted, which is an understatement and he is considered league-wide to be among the top at his position. I'm not saying that Davis is on his level. Everyone keeps throwing around this word "elite" whenever they talk about VD as if to take the topic on a different tangent. There are only so many of those DB's in the league. I'm more concerned with getting dependable parts (which his overall performance was) .... and to have it particularly at nickel CB. He's better than any guy we have at that position and would've also provided important depth anytime Smith/Marshall go down.

But that's in the past now.

_________________

You're correct that he's a better corner than Carroll or Wilson. But he's definitely replaceable. We could easily find a solid nickel corner in next years draft. I'd say we'd be able to find a solid player in the 2nd or 3rd round. Does that help us out now, no, but if our staff felt that we definitely needed Vontae then we would have kept him. But they didn't.
Personally, I think safety is a greater area of need. Clemons seems to always be a step late and is constantly miscommunicating with our corners. He's the player I'd most like to see us upgrade after the season is over.

Judging by this organization's recent history (particularly while Ireland has been employed) it has definitely NOT been so "easy" to find a quality nickel cornerback. It's been our achilles heel, along with LB's in coverage.

_________________

I completely disagree, Ireland has done a solid job drafting defensive secondary. We just haven't used any high draft picks on the secondary since 2009. I believe that Ireland could easily find a solid nickel corner if given a 2nd or 3rd round pick. Easily.

2009 Round 1 - Vontae Davis
2009 Round 2 - Sean Smith
2009 Round 5 - Chris Clemons
2010 Round 5 - Nolan Carroll
2010 Round 5 - Reshad Jones
2011 Round 7 - Jimmy Wilson

Every single defensive back he's drafted is still on the team and is contributing on some level except for Davis. How again is he bad at drafting secondary? I think you underestimate Ireland's ability to draft defense. We have a top three run defense and by the end of the season I think our defense will be top ten overall. I don't know what your standards are but to me that's pretty good.

who said anything about Namdi? Vontae is no Namdi Asamougha
I'm talking about davis's lack of mental focus.

I completely disagree, Ireland has done a solid job drafting defensive secondary. We just haven't used any high draft picks on the secondary since 2009. I believe that Ireland could easily find a solid nickel corner if given a 2nd or 3rd round pick. Easily.

2009 Round 1 - Vontae Davis
2009 Round 2 - Sean Smith
2009 Round 5 - Chris Clemons
2010 Round 5 - Nolan Carroll
2010 Round 5 - Reshad Jones
2011 Round 7 - Jimmy Wilson




Not only that, the fact that he traded 2 headdcases and got value while we are usually on the otherside of the coin getting abused. Add in not signing Orton, Flynn, or giving up a 2nd rd pick Cobb I think he's pretty solid. We also need stability. Giving up on coaches and GMs means we are constantly rebuilding. Patience guys. We are seeing an improvment with our win streak at the end of last year and our 1-1 record which is tied for 1st place in the East and we are tied with the Steelers, Packers and have a better record than the Saints.

Completely disagree with what? I see we're changing arguments again, even though I specifically mentioned the NICKEL CORNERBACK!!!!! Where is ours since it's so easy to fill? Not one single person who's watched the Dolphins over the last 4-5 years can say with a straight face that we've had dependable parts at that position. If your saving grace is the players are still on the team, then by all means you can hoist that trophy all you want. You act like our safeties are dependable when they too have been suspect in coverage. Only thing they've excelled in is run support.

_________________

I'm referring to how you've determined Davis to be a failure in Indy after two games and that he can no longer play "the man's position". The Namdi comparison was to point out that even one of the game's elite players struggled when he joined a new team and defensive philosophy.

Wasn't that hard to understand.

_________________

i don't really care

Ya, obviously ..... since it contradicts your assertion.

_________________

No, what I was eluding to was the fact that Ireland has a better record of drafting defensive backs than you think. As far as the nickel corner position is concerned, I was pointing out that with Irelands steady track record of finding players that can play in the secondary, I have no doubt that with a 2nd or 3rd round pick he can find a nickel corner since it is a support position.

Marshall has actually played nickel in games and done an ok job considering he's still learning the defense. Nolan Carroll has been lining up outside in the nickel package in several formations. I think Marshall is a solid corner and I think he'll only get better as the season goes along. Then next year we'll be able to draft another corner in the first couple of rounds that can either replace Marshall on the outside or take over full time at the nickel. Carroll will take the dime.

I never claimed that the answers were on the roster, but I do think that Ireland will eventually add them to the roster. Our secondary isn't the best in the NFL but it also isn't the worst. They've been targeted all game long because teams cannot run the ball against us. Considering our opponents have gameplanned to attack the secondary, and the pass rush has been weak, I think they've done pretty good.

Also, I never said the safeties were dependable. I said I like Reshad Jones and think he's a good young player. Clemons on the other hand I think needs to be replaced sooner than later. I'm hoping we draft a safety early next year to replace him. Same goes for Carroll, I'm hoping we draft another corner to bump him at the nickel.

My honest opinion of our secondary is if we added a cornerback in the 2nd round and a safety in the 2nd or 3rd round, that our secondary would be complete and have a good mix of veteran and young players.

So Vontae supposedly sux. Smith is the best we have but he still can't tackle. Nolan Carroll is still wearing a bullseye and never produces a big play. Jimmy Smith is a decent dime back. Clemons blows chunks. I'm not sure that is an impressive record dude.

Who is Jimmy Smith? You mean Wilson?

Davis doesn't suck, if you read my previous post I gave the man his dues. I said he'll play a long time in the NFL. That said, he was the 3rd best cornerback on our roster. Marshall beat him out for the starting job, which is no surprise if you look at the two players careers. Marshall is easily the more productive player. But what then happened was our staff chose to trade Vontae because they didn't like his work ethic and ability to pick up the new defense. Nolan Carroll looked like he was learning at a faster rate so they chose to go with him instead.
As far as Ireland's record of drafting DBs, anytime you keep every single player you draft over a five year period and they are all playing, that means you're doing a good job. They can't all be stars or even starters, but the fact that none of them are busts is very good. Especially when you consider half of them are 5th and 7th round picks.

Ehhhh keeping them doesn't automatically equate to adequate production or contribution. Where they rank among their peers is more important. We're not talking about a Dolphins team where the secondary is so loaded with talent that if they cracked the starting roster it would be an achievement.

_________________

What is the expectation of a 5th or 7th round player??? To me it's that they provide quality depth and possibly see the field and contribute. All of those players have done that. Each and every single one of them I believe has started a game if I'm not mistaken. To get that out of late round picks is good in my opinion.

What is the expectation of a 1st or 2nd round player??? That they become a starter and potentially a star. Vontae and Smith were both veteran starters before the season began. While neither is a star yet, they both are solid veterans.

If you want to make the arguement that Ireland should have used higher picks on secondary, I won't argue with that. But to say the guy has neglected the defensive secondary is wrong in my opinion. We've either added a veteran or drafted a player every single year Ireland has been around. He definitely has not neglected the secondary. I believe that if he's allowed to use a pair of high picks on the secondary again like he did in 2009, that we'll be loaded up and ready to go next year.

I said nothing about "neglect." Cmon WK, we gotta keep focused here on the argument. The original assertion I made which you responded to was in regards to the nickel corner position. But since we're talking now about the entire secondary you said Ireland did a "solid" job drafting that position. Again, will disagree with you that it's been solid. Outside of VD/Smith the rest of the secondary has been rotating parts. Where do they rank among their peers? Making the team has more to do with the fact that we haven't had viable replacements, Every single one of them (Carroll, Wilson, Clemons, Jones) has been suspect in pass coverage. We've been talking about a playmaker at safety as long as we have been trying to find a nickel corner. They're young guys and there is certainly still time for them to develop, but for now it's a bit far fetched to say Ireland has done a solid job with that entire unit.

_________________

You hit the nail on the head. That is my point. These are all young guys who are contributing. I believe that if Ireland sees what we're seeing, he will make some moves and bring in some guys via the draft to strengthen the secondary. You've got to consider that Ireland was asked midstream to change coaching staffs/schemes. His drafting will have to adapt to our new team image. He's already got two starters on offense with Tannehill and Martin. Miller and Vernon are contributing as well. I think Rock that if you give Ireland time you'll see that he's very capable of building a championship roster in Miami. He's hands down the best evaluator of talent we've had since the Jimmy Johnson years.

But see I wonder where these kinds of statements come from. Vernon isn't really contributing anything. In fact he had his snaps reduced into the Oakland game. They decided to leave Misi out there because he's excellent against the run, even though he too provides absolutely no pass rush and is suspect against the pass. Vernon is extremely raw right now. This is just me, but I don't consider getting an occasional snap or two as "contributing".

Ireland has been a real mixed bag in two seasons. I've heard mention on WQAM many times that he's a better scout than a GM. There is some truth to that. When you wiff on 90% of your FA signings, have 3rd rounders like Egnew not even seeing the field, and ignoring the teams most dire position (WR) I dunno that I can sit there and say with a straight face he's doing that swell of a job. Btw, Jimmy Johnson was a great talent evaluator in Dallas. In Miami? Not a chance. Drafting John Avery over Randy Moss ..... Cecil Collins .... etc. etc. He lost his mojo when was here in the dual role coach/GM capacity.

_________________

This will remain one of those things that will always be stated inaccurate by Miami fans. JJ did not draft John Avery over Randy Moss. There was not any point during the '98 draft that Miami was on the clock with Randy Moss available.

I love the revisionist history. Miami traded out of the spot they could've drafted Moss.
1998 Jimmy Johnson had his eye on a player at 19, but thought there was no way that player would drop that far, so when Green Bay called and asked to trade up, Jimmy said yes so he could add an extra pick or two. Then as pick number 19 came and went, that player was still sitting there. Randy Moss was that player. He would do well selecting Patrick Surtain in round 2, in round 3 however, he would miss again, this time passing on QB Brian Griese or WR Hines Ward in favor of LB Brad Jackson.

Easily? If finding solid CB in Rd. 2 & 3 were easy then there would not be such a high demand for a quality corner.


How many of these DBs are considered good?