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 Vontae Davis is a Colt! 
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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
swerve13 wrote:
i think next year's are better than this draft. Woods and Allen in the top 10


I like Robert Woods, but he's not special. I haven't looked into Keenan yet, but after that who is there? Terrance Williams?

Next year's class is pretty weak.


Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:40 pm
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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
Trading a good young player for another unknown 2nd rate talent is dumb.

Yes, but trading a player who is consistantly getting into trouble (marshall) and trading a player who has come into camp 2 years in a row out of shape, coming to a meeting hungover, and losing his starting job in camp might not be a big of a loss as you think.


Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:41 pm
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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
Phins Rock wrote:
Dphins4me wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:

But seriously, why not? Realistically, (especially given Ireland's history), you're only hitting on one of those 2 picks anyway. Good luck finding a player of Wallace's caliber in the 2nd round...

Hopefully Ireland will not be in Miami. Wallace was a 3rd Rd. pick.

Miami has to many holes to spend 2 high picks for one player.


And you created one more by trading Vontae, for a pick you very likely can't replace him with. Just stupid.

Btw, why would Ireland do this if he was afraid of being fired? I think it's clear Ross has given him a full chance to rebuild this team "the right way"...Problem is Ireland is overkilling the obsession with acquiring draft picks.

And like apostos said, Ireland's track record in the 2nd round is much less than 50%. Even if you do hit on one of those 2 picks, you're likely only "filling a hole" with an average player...Wallace not only fills the biggest hole on the roster, but it gives us a BIG TIME playmaker at the position.

The draft, especially early, in today's game is about acquiring playmakers at playmaking positions. Acquiring Wallace does that. Keeping the 2 2nd round picks will likely result in 2 more Koa Misi's....


The way I see it, we need a couple of Wr's, a saftey, a pass rusher, and a possibly and inside LB (I'm not sure about Dansby at this point) to really be a solid contender.

I'd have no problems trading two seconds to Pittsburgh for Wallace. I'd do that in a heartbeat. Use our First on saftey or Pass Rusher, and try to add through Free agency next year. At least you'd have two of those hole's filled, and add more talent to develop.


Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:41 pm
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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
Phins Rock wrote:
Not to ramble on here, but eventually these trades have to have some substance.

You can trade Marshall and Vontae and whoever else for picks....

But at this point it's like you acquiring picks for the sake of acquiring picks. Trading a good young player for another unknown 2nd rate talent is dumb.


Reminds me of the putrid job Robert Sarver is doing with my Phoenix Suns. Yay, we got some 1s's and 2nd's for Steve Nash ..... oh wait the Lakers are good so they'll be worth some kracker jacks boxes ..... oh wait their value just got worse, the Lakers traded for Howard. LOL

Stockpiling picks when you don't know what to do with them isn't a good thing.

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Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:42 pm
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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
Makchell wrote:
Trading a good young player for another unknown 2nd rate talent is dumb.

Yes, but trading a player who is consistantly getting into trouble (marshall) and trading a player who has come into camp 2 years in a row out of shape, coming to a meeting hungover, and losing his starting job in camp might not be a big of a loss as you think.


I'm not disagreeing with Marshall. I'm glad he's gone. I would have cut him if Chicago didn't take him off our hands, honestly. Tannehill would be seeing a physiatrist already if he was still here.

But with Vontae, it's different. He's had some issues, no question. But he's also 24 and extremely talented. I'm shocked a new staff gave up on him so easily. Especially when he's been WAY ahead of Marshall based on the Pre Season.

I don't buy him being the nickel guy one bit. It was motivation, and it seemed to have worked...or apparently not. Regardless, you can't trade away every good player with some issues or you'll end up with no talent.


Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:45 pm
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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
Have any of the Dolphin players commented? On last week's Hard Knocks, Bush, Dansby & Long talked to Philbin about a leadership council to help address player issues. I know they were not officially going to establish the Council till the team went to 53, but I think the Team Leaders were asking to be given the opportunity to help/mentor a teamate before a drastic decision was made.
Not apples/apples since Ocho was cut and Davis was traded, but it would be interesting to hear their thoughts.

Good point on Phinfever Live, John Jerry came in terribly out of shape and the coaches didn't give up on him? Vontae at his best, is worth more than a 2nd & 6th, especially considering our draft history. It shouldn't have been strictly about what Vontae showed in preseason. Through his Dolphin's tenure he has been locked one on one with the opponents' best receivers and continually won those battles.


Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:49 pm
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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
apatos19 wrote:
The way I see it, we need a couple of Wr's, a saftey, a pass rusher, and a possibly and inside LB (I'm not sure about Dansby at this point) to really be a solid contender.

I'd have no problems trading two seconds to Pittsburgh for Wallace. I'd do that in a heartbeat. Use our First on saftey or Pass Rusher, and try to add through Free agency next year. At least you'd have two of those hole's filled, and add more talent to develop.


And this is another huge issue.

People keep seeing the draft picks as filling more holes. "Well we can now fill another hole with this 2nd round pick....3 holes in the first 2 rounds filled, huzzah!"

It's not about filling every hole systematically. That's what we've tried to do and it leads to acquiring mediocre talent. The draft is about acquiring playmakers at key positions. The rest will fill out, (see New England, New Orleans, Giants, etc).....

Wallace provides the avenue to get one of these guys....Go do it. I'd much rather get a big time playmaker than "fill" an extra need with that extra 2nd round pick.


Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:50 pm
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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
killerbeezdee wrote:
This is one of the best thought out response to this thread. Guys you're acting like we were a super bowl contender with Davis on roster.

Rock:
Has absolutely nothing to do with our arguments, for those of us who are arguing against it. Reading comprehension.


Really Rock? Reading comprehension? Opinions vary, don't you agree and especially with the mixed bag responses. I get that you are not happy with Miami trading Vontae and that's fine you are entitled to that opinion. Me on the other hand, the jury is out as it is too early for me to determine if this was a good move or not and how much losing Vontae will be to this team.

I do know that the coaches work with these guys everyday and they obviously have seen more from Sean Smith, Marshall and the comments that Nolan Carroll has really improved.

Let's see how it plays out and then we can tear into the decision more.


Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:58 pm
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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
Finhead34 wrote:
Really Rock? Reading comprehension?


Yes, REALLY.

He was sarcastically addressing our concerns about the trade, chalking it up to us thinking we deluded ourselves into believing we were going to the Super Bowl this year. None of the posters who aired their concerns said anything about believing that.

Quote:
Opinions vary, don't you agree and especially with the mixed bag responses. I get that you are not happy with Miami trading Vontae and that's fine you are entitled to that opinion. Me on the other hand, the jury is out as it is too early for me to determine if this was a good move or not and how much losing Vontae will be to this team.


The jury is still out with what they actually do with the picks, no doubt. However, there is the whole previous body of work with what we've done with 2nd rounders to leave someone in doubt. It's not like we're drawing on no previous history here.

Quote:
I do know that the coaches work with these guys everyday and they obviously have seen more from Sean Smith, Marshall and the comments that Nolan Carroll has really improved.

Let's see how it plays out and then we can tear into the decision more.


Coaches make mistakes. Not saying that it's permanently planted in stone that this is one yet (though signs point in that direction). But it's hard to invoke the argument that we just go off of what they say. I've never chosen to analyze my football team that way .... and I was a supporter of bringing Philbin here.

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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
Fine, if we "agree" that Davis needed to go, it still means we wasted a #1 pick.

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Last edited by 1984phins on Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:05 pm
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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
Hope everyone is currently drinking a growler and calming down


Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:07 pm
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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
1984phins wrote:
Fine, if we "agree" that Davis needed to go, it still means we still wasted a #1 pick.


LOL.

It was a shrewd move to turn a 1st rounder into a 2nd and conditional 6th. That was the whole plan to begin with!

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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
Rock Sexton wrote:
1984phins wrote:
Fine, if we "agree" that Davis needed to go, it still means we still wasted a #1 pick.


LOL.

It was a shrewd move to turn a 1st rounder into a 2nd and conditional 6th. That was the whole plan to begin with!



I hate to sound like a broken record, but why is Ireland still here?

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Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:11 pm
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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
Wallace was scheduled to report to the Steelers this weekend and sign his tenure. Checked, but couldn't find any news on whether that happened.

This move really puzzles me unless we make another big trade shortly, prefereably for a WR, there is no value this year. Would Vontae's stock go down if we held onto him this season and traded him at the end of the year........Maybe......Maybe Not. The benefit of not trading him so ealry is we really could have used his services this year.


Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:15 pm
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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
jammer wrote:
Hope everyone is currently drinking a growler and calming down

:)

10/10 post in the jammer-esque category.


Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:25 pm
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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
Coaches make mistakes. Not saying that it's permanently planted in stone that this is one yet (though signs point in that direction). But it's hard to invoke the argument that we just go off of what they say. I've never chosen to analyze my football team that way .... and I was a supporter of bringing Philbin here.

I hears ya Rock. I am a supporter and still am of Philbin. Let's hope what he is doing IS best for the team.

Of course, it is only preseason, but going back to receiver...Brandon Marshall is tearing it up in Chicago thus far. I was not a fan of them giving him away, but again, I will hold my opinion until we see how the rest of this plays out, but what we have at receiver and now at corner, whether it is through a trade to get another receiver or live with what we got and the same at corner, I can only "hope" this ends up being a positive for the Dolphins.


Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:29 pm
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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
From the Sun-Sentinel

"What in the world are we doing? No way are we better without Vontae. We're supposed to be getting better, and with every decision we keep getting worse," a Dolphins veteran said, requesting anonymity. "We need to see something positive happen."


Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:41 pm
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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
That's the second veteran to question a move publicly, although Dansby didn't hide behind anonymity.

Both moves, in my opinion, start with Philbin searching for choir boys.

How long did it take Cam Cameron to lose the veteran leadership on this team? Just asking...

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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
Yep Rich, he seems to be adopting the Merchant Marines background of his along with the choir boy approach on this team.


Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:47 pm
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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
no one is going to give up a 1st round pick for an inconsistent corner with work ethic and maturity issues. This isn't Madden. I can't believe we got what we did honestly. Better players than Davis have been traded for less.


Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:00 pm
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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
swerve13 wrote:
no one is going to give up a 1st round pick for an inconsistent corner with work ethic and maturity issues. This isn't Madden. I can't believe we got what we did honestly. Better players than Davis have been traded for less.

Generally its because of contract issues, but you will be hard pressed to find a young DB coming into his 4th Yr being traded.


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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
Dphins4me wrote:
swerve13 wrote:
no one is going to give up a 1st round pick for an inconsistent corner with work ethic and maturity issues. This isn't Madden. I can't believe we got what we did honestly. Better players than Davis have been traded for less.

Generally its because of contract issues, but you will be hard pressed to find a young DB coming into his 4th Yr being traded.



I actually believe it's about money too. Looking forward they weren't going to extend him.
I've thinking that for awhile now, that he wasn't one of the core players they were going to pay to keep. Keep Long, Wake, Soliai and Pouncey. Good core players you build around.
And personally, I'm not real big on breaking the bank on corners. they're only as good as the pass rush anyway. just ask the Giants.


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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
2013!!!


Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:27 pm
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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
Bill Polian after seeing VD in camp:

Quote:
As for Davis, few weeks ago, long-time NFL General Manager Bill Polian was at Dolphins camp and singled out Davis' talent. "Watching him in practice, he jumps at you with his feet and hip movment — he should be a guy who's special,'' Polian said on Sirius radio.

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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
look on the bright side, at least Philbin's not Tony Sparano. I think the Jets just kicked another field goal. lol


Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:46 pm
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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
Maybe this is simplifying the matter too much, but...

Marshall cost two 2nd round picks and was traded for two 3rd rounders.

Davis cost a 1st round pick and was traded for a 2nd and a conditional 6th.

Those aren't bad exchanges if the player the Dolphins are trading are on the downside of their career AND the picks received in return are used wisely.

So far we are on the losing end of the Marshall trade, and I don't have much hope at this point that the Davis trade will work out any different.


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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
Mindtornado wrote:
Maybe this is simplifying the matter too much, but...

Marshall cost two 2nd round picks and was traded for two 3rd rounders.

Davis cost a 1st round pick and was traded for a 2nd and a conditional 6th.

Those aren't bad exchanges if the player the Dolphins are trading are on the downside of their career AND the picks received in return are used wisely.

So far we are on the losing end of the Marshall trade, and I don't have much hope at this point that the Davis trade will work out any different.


How is Vontae Davis at the downside of his career heading into his 4th season in the pros?

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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
this is what i was talking about earlier Rock, when you suggested I never heard of Marshall before we got him.

Quote:
According to Pro Football Focus, Vontae Davis' ranking among all NFL cornerbacks
last year was 43rd. Richard Marshall, the veteran brought in on a three-year deal that now essentially replaces Vontae, was ranked 51st among 109 qualifying corners in 2011.


virtually identical ranking, which lends creedance to my statement that Davis was overrated and Marshall was underrated. I mean losing the 43rd best corner should not have everyone up in arms.
it's just the name and where he was drafted that people are hung up on.


Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:33 pm
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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
Rock Sexton wrote:
Mindtornado wrote:
Maybe this is simplifying the matter too much, but...

Marshall cost two 2nd round picks and was traded for two 3rd rounders.

Davis cost a 1st round pick and was traded for a 2nd and a conditional 6th.

Those aren't bad exchanges if the player the Dolphins are trading are on the downside of their career AND the picks received in return are used wisely.

So far we are on the losing end of the Marshall trade, and I don't have much hope at this point that the Davis trade will work out any different.


How is Vontae Davis at the downside of his career heading into his 4th season in the pros?


He isn't. That's why I said "if". I think both Marshall and Davis will have much better years than they did in 2011.


Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:34 pm
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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
swerve13 wrote:
virtually identical ranking, which lends creedance to my statement that Davis was overrated and Marshall was underrated. I mean losing the 43rd best corner should not have everyone up in arms.
it's just the name and where he was drafted that people are hung up on.

I'm not a one yr type person. Players can have bad yrs & still be able to return to top status.

I wanted Nicks in '09 & this trade proves it would have been the correct choice.


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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
Dphins4me wrote:
swerve13 wrote:
virtually identical ranking, which lends creedance to my statement that Davis was overrated and Marshall was underrated. I mean losing the 43rd best corner should not have everyone up in arms.
it's just the name and where he was drafted that people are hung up on.

I'm not a one yr type person. Players can have bad yrs & still be able to return to top status.

I wanted Nicks in '09 & this trade proves it would have been the correct choice.



absolutely I wanted Nicks too. But really, was Davis ever a top 10 corner in this league?


Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:37 pm
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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
Mindtornado wrote:

He isn't. That's why I said "if". I think both Marshall and Davis will have much better years than they did in 2011.


It will be brutal if that happens, in light of a potentially ugly season for the Dolphins.

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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
swerve13 wrote:
absolutely I wanted Nicks too. But really, was Davis ever a top 10 corner in this league?


Why does VD absolutely have to be in the Top 10 after 3 seasons in the NFL?

There are 64 starting CB's in this league. While he may not be in the upper echelon of the Top 10, he's definitely in the conversation for Top 25.

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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
Rock Sexton wrote:
swerve13 wrote:
absolutely I wanted Nicks too. But really, was Davis ever a top 10 corner in this league?


Why does VD absolutely have to be in the Top 10 after 3 seasons in the NFL?

There are 64 starting CB's in this league. While he may not be in the upper echelon of the Top 10, he's definitely in the conversation for Top 25.


not worth it in my opinion when Sean Smith graded out higher than him.
In contrast Hakeem Nicks was drafted right after him and is top ten at his position.


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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
swerve13 wrote:
not worth it in my opinion when Sean Smith graded out higher than him.
In contrast Hakeem Nicks was drafted right after him and is top ten at his position.


We didn't get Nicks. But we did get a Top 25 CB .... oh woe was us.

The following stats are taken from the 2010 season

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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
he was the 43rd corner last year and looks worse this year.
Easy to see why they would trade him for a 2nd round pick. I still say very good value in return.


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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
swerve13 wrote:
he was the 43rd corner last year and looks worse this year.
Easy to see why they would trade him for a 2nd round pick. I still say very good value in return.


43rd? Where do you derive that number from? Link?

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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
looks like our boy Smith beats him out every year.
I remember the coaches saying that Smith grew up and davis didnt on Hard Knocks.
Smith practices with a fierce attitude. I was disgusted watching Vontae hiding on the sidelines saying he was acting like an in-shape player. That type of crap disgusts me as an average citizen making average pay to bust my butt at work everyday and this guy can't even stay in shape. What a joke!


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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
swerve13 wrote:
looks like our boy Smith beats him out every year.
I remember the coaches saying that Smith grew up and davis didnt on Hard Knocks.
Smith practices with a fierce attitude. I was disgusted watching Vontae hiding on the sidelines saying he was acting like an in-shape player. That type of crap disgusts me as an average citizen making average pay to bust my butt at work everyday and this guy can't even stay in shape. What a joke!


Still waiting on that link showing VD ranked as the 43rd CB in the NFL ....

OMG he's 24 years old, after that there's no ability to ever grow up. He's doomed!

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Post Re: Vontae Davis is a Colt!
Rock Sexton wrote:
swerve13 wrote:
he was the 43rd corner last year and looks worse this year.
Easy to see why they would trade him for a 2nd round pick. I still say very good value in return.


43rd? Where do you derive that number from? Link?



i already supplied it above


Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:56 pm
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