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 God did not create the universe, says Hawking 
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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Rich wrote:
AQNOR wrote:
I think it takes just as much faith to believe in evolution as it does to believe in the biblical text of God creating the universe and life.


If you are not educated in the science of evolution... then sure it does.

If you are and you realize that you can see it around you everyday, then it's not that difficult to fathom.


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AQNOR wrote:
So Rich were you educated in the science of evolution? Do you see it around you everyday?

Yes.


Could you explain that a little more Rich? What can you see and realize about evolution around you everyday?

My comments were with the idea of what some call the scientific method. The idea of advancing knowledge through formulating a question collecting data through observation and experimenting then testing an answer by those things. The same observations and experimenting should be able to be produced by others. It is sometimes shortened by saying what is observable repeatable.

I clearly see God's handiwork all of the time on a daily basis and I don't think that you need to be educated in the bible to do so.

I have a public education k -12 and graduated with a B.S. from NCSU in the school of Forrest Resources.(many biology and zoology classes) So I have been educated in the science of evolution in as far as it was taught in those institutions. Did you mean a more specific course of study?

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"We must bear in mind that just because neo-Darwinian evolution is the most plausible
naturalistic explanation of origins, we should not assume that it is necessarily true.... In
retrospect, it seems as though Darwinists have been less concerned with the scientific question
of accurately explaining the empirical data of natural history, and more concerned with the
religious or philosophical question of explaining the design found in nature without a designer.
Darwin's general theory of evolution may, in the final analysis, be little more than an
unwarranted extrapolation from microevolution based more upon philosophy than fact. The
problem is that Darwinism continues to distort natural science."
- Art Battson, professor, University of CA - Berkley: ("Facts, Fossils, and Philosophy", 17 May
1997)


Quote:
"The philosophy of evolution is based upon assumptions that cannot be scientifically verified...
Whatever evidence can be assembled for evolution is both limited and circumstantial in nature."
- G.A. Kerkut, biochemistry professor at the University of Southampton: (cited in _Biology_,
Keith Graham et al, p.363)
"


http://honradeus.com/argumentCenter/joo ... format=pdf

So here are people educated at least in some degree about evolution who might disagree with your statement that if you were educated about evolution you would see it around you everyday.

I understand that most, probably the vast majority of people educated in evolution believe it. But in what way can you see it around you everyday I don't understand.


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
AQNOR wrote:
I clearly see God's handiwork all of the time on a daily basis and I don't think that you need to be educated in the bible to do so.


People see what they want to. I see God around me everywhere as well.

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
I have a classmate I went to college with that has one of the most brilliant minds that I have met. He has read and critiqued Hawking's book and has also made some scientific observations in his blog. I thought I would post a link to it for those of you who enjoy reading this type of material. God Bless!
http://alesserson.livejournal.com/
http://alesserson.livejournal.com/3007.html#cutid1


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
OK. My question is how did all this matter come together. I'm not just talking about life of earth, I'm talking about the matter in space. How did the sun catch fire? Get created? I went to Catholic school for 8 years, but I question a lot of stuff almost everyday. Both theories make sense, but who is right? Then another question is who/what created god?


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Makchell wrote:
Then another question is who/what created god?


If God was created, he's not God.


Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:21 pm
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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Makchell wrote:
OK. My question is how did all this matter come together. I'm not just talking about life of earth, I'm talking about the matter in space. How did the sun catch fire? Get created? I went to Catholic school for 8 years, but I question a lot of stuff almost everyday. Both theories make sense, but who is right? Then another question is who/what created god?



I believe that God "spoke" everything we can see and study into existence. He created everything.

I believe that God is the eternal self-existing one. He has no creator. He has always existed.


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Phins Rock wrote:
Makchell wrote:
Then another question is who/what created god?


If God was created, he's not God.


True. God says that he was always there. Now that blows my "limited" mind.

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
If there ever was a time when there was nothing, nothing can come from nothing. Chance configuration is a myth,because chance doesn't exist. Chance is not an entity, therefore it can't create anything. Evolution is not only bad science, it's irrational. " The foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of men." "The fool says in his heart, there is no God."


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
It says right there in the very first post the Universe can and will create itself from nothing per the law of physics. Do you guys know that we are physically unable to recognize all the dimensions of reality? There could be life out there of a much higher consciousness that could have the ability to create our universe and would that make them god? I dare say before I die (of old age) human beings will be able to create our own sentient life forms, would that make us god? Its all relative.


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
gatorphin wrote:
If there ever was a time when there was nothing, nothing can come from nothing. Chance configuration is a myth,because chance doesn't exist. Chance is not an entity, therefore it can't create anything. Evolution is not only bad science, it's irrational. " The foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of men." "The fool says in his heart, there is no God."


Chance is a relative term. All of time already exist but we cant see it, so from our point of view there are chance occurences even though they don't exist from the relative POV of all time, but it does exist in the conscious mind of humans.

The earth isnt a product of chance occurences its arose from certain sets of conditions necessary for its existence. More earth like planets are being discovered. Science is always moving forward but religion stands still so you can talk about science as if current theories are set in stone and say its irrational but science probes for answers, it doesnt settle on them.


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
ggippo wrote:
Chance is a relative term.



Everything's relative.

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Iowafin wrote:
ggippo wrote:
Chance is a relative term.



Everything's relative.


Relative to what though?


Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:04 pm
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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
An ant takes a lot longer to cover a certain distance than a human does that distance is relatively longer for the ant than it is for a human. If there is a God that God sees everything at once it has perceptive abilities that sees all of time as one moment.


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
ggippo wrote:
gatorphin wrote:
If there ever was a time when there was nothing, nothing can come from nothing. Chance configuration is a myth,because chance doesn't exist. Chance is not an entity, therefore it can't create anything. Evolution is not only bad science, it's irrational. " The foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of men." "The fool says in his heart, there is no God."


Chance is a relative term. All of time already exist but we cant see it, so from our point of view there are chance occurences even though they don't exist from the relative POV of all time, but it does exist in the conscious mind of humans.

The earth isnt a product of chance occurences its arose from certain sets of conditions necessary for its existence. More earth like planets are being discovered. Science is always moving forward but religion stands still so you can talk about science as if current theories are set in stone and say its irrational but science probes for answers, it doesnt settle on them.


Mankind is continually yearning and groaning for knowledge of God. If 'religion' were 'fixed', it would never have survived for as long as it has. The reason it has is because mankind is continually seeking his Creator. I know that isn't the 1+1 always equals 2 answer most have come to expect from science, but science isn't the only intellectual truth out there.


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Phin wrote:
Mankind is continually yearning and groaning for knowledge of God.


Really? Because if you look at history, mankind has continually "yearned and groaned" (those sound like sexual terms) for knowledge of all different types of Gods, from the Greek and Roman Gods to the Egyptian Gods, Sumerian Gods, Norse Gods, Mayan Gods etc etc etc...

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but science isn't the only intellectual truth out there.


How is something you cannot explain and prove an intellectual truth?

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
gatorphin wrote:
chance doesn't exist


So a person happening to guess the right lottery numbers doesn't exist?

I guess I imagined all those lotto winners I saw on TV.

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
gatorphin wrote:
If there ever was a time when there was nothing, nothing can come from nothing. Chance configuration is a myth,because chance doesn't exist. Chance is not an entity, therefore it can't create anything. Evolution is not only bad science, it's irrational. " The foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of men." "The fool says in his heart, there is no God."


Not sure where you got those quotes from. They are all very biased toward one side of the story, which I am sure you intended, and generally nonsensical. But we can look at the flip side of the end quote:

"Only in the fool's mind is there a God."


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
degs wrote:
gatorphin wrote:
If there ever was a time when there was nothing, nothing can come from nothing. Chance configuration is a myth,because chance doesn't exist. Chance is not an entity, therefore it can't create anything. Evolution is not only bad science, it's irrational. " The foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of men." "The fool says in his heart, there is no God."


Not sure where you got those quotes from. They are all very biased toward one side of the story, which I am sure you intended, and generally nonsensical. But we can look at the flip side of the end quote:

"Only in the fool's mind is there a God."


Better to be a fool who believes in Him than a fool who doesn't.


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Phins Rock wrote:
Better to be a fool who believes in Him than a fool who doesn't.


Why?

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Rich wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
Better to be a fool who believes in Him than a fool who doesn't.


Why?


Because if your a fool who does, what's the difference? If your a fool who doesn't.....


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
you're

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Phins Rock wrote:
Because if your a fool who does, what's the difference?


Guessing correctly does not constitute being a fool.

Living your entire life believing a lie that you were brainwashed to belive since birth does.

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Rich wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
Because if your a fool who does, what's the difference?


Guessing correctly does not constitute being a fool.

Living your entire life believing a lie that you were brainwashed to belive since birth does.


Nobody has any clue which side is right. I'm just saying that if you're a believer and you're wrong, what's the difference?


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Phins Rock wrote:
I'm just saying that if you're a believer and you're wrong, what's the difference?


I answered that question. If it didn't register, I won't bother answering it again.

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Rich wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
I'm just saying that if you're a believer and you're wrong, what's the difference?


I answered that question. If it didn't register, I won't bother answering it again.


Whether it's true or not, what's wrong with believing in something that gives you hope, comfort, a place to go when things aren't going well?


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
PR, I believe in God, but one day you'll learn that arguing for God's existence is a lost cause. It is a belief, and those that don't simply don't. The best thing you can do is pray for them, but they'll still continue to think you're an idiot because you believe in a higher power.

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Iowafin wrote:
PR, I believe in God, but one day you'll learn that arguing for God's existence is a lost cause. It is a belief, and those that don't simply don't. The best thing you can do is pray for them, but they'll still continue to think you're an idiot because you believe in a higher power.


I'm not trying to convince him that there is one. Just that it's safer to assume there is, than there isn't.


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Phins Rock wrote:
I'm not trying to convince him that there is one. Just that it's safer to assume there is, than there isn't.


But that doesn't make sense if there is no God.
Now I know I say "if" and that's what you're playing with, but to an atheist or someone that's really struggling to believe, this argument as well as any is a dead end.

Until they feel it spiritually, there's nothing more you can do other than pray.

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Phins Rock wrote:
what's wrong with believing in something that gives you hope, comfort, a place to go when things aren't going well?


Isn't that how alcoholism and drug addiction start?

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Phins Rock wrote:
Just that it's safer to assume there is, than there isn't.


Safer based on what? What if the God you believe in isn't the true god and there is a true god who is offended by your belief in your god when you die?

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Rich wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
Just that it's safer to assume there is, than there isn't.


Safer based on what? What if the God you believe in isn't the true god and there is a true god who is offended by your belief in your god when you die?


You may laugh at this and that's fine, but I think anybody who believes that is being silly (and unfortunately some Christian denominations believe this). It's not about worshiping God to me. It's about living a good life, and when the truth is revealed after death choosing God.

I have no idea what religion I am, not even sure that I'm sticking with Christianity. But I don't think it matters. If you search for the answer in your heart, and care about it, that's what matters, regardless of what you find.
Rich wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
what's wrong with believing in something that gives you hope, comfort, a place to go when things aren't going well?


Isn't that how alcoholism and drug addiction start?


I'm not sure I know what your point is?


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Phins Rock wrote:
but I think anybody who believes that is being silly


But believing in a woman coming from a man's rib and eating an apple from the forbidden tree thanks to a talking snake and a guy hanging out inside a whale for a few days and a guy building a boat to carry two of each animal species during a 40 day storm and flood (I could go on and on) isn't?

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I'm not sure I know what your point is?


Some people use religion as a crutch. Some people use drugs or alcohol as a crutch.

Using either as a crutch isn't good. Using anything as a crutch isn't good, unless your leg is messed up...

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Rich wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
but I think anybody who believes that is being silly


But believing in a woman coming from a man's rib and eating an apple from the forbidden tree thanks to a talking snake and a guy hanging out inside a whale for a few days and a guy building a boat to carry two of each animal species during a 40 day storm and flood (I could go on and on) isn't?

I don't want to offend anyone and their beliefs, but I agree with you it is.

Quote:
Some people use religion as a crutch. Some people use drugs or alcohol as a crutch.

Using either as a crutch isn't good. Using anything as a crutch isn't good, unless your leg is messed up...


I don't agree with that. Unless your counting on God to do something or intervene or whatever, I don't see anything wrong with leaning on a belief for comfort.


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Phins Rock wrote:
I don't agree with that. Unless your counting on God to do something or intervene or whatever, I don't see anything wrong with leaning on a belief for comfort.


So by leaning on God for him to provide comfort relying on him to do something?

That's still using God as a crutch.

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Rich wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
I don't agree with that. Unless your counting on God to do something or intervene or whatever, I don't see anything wrong with leaning on a belief for comfort.


So by leaning on God for him to provide comfort relying on him to do something?

That's still using God as a crutch.


I know. And I'm saying I don't see anything wrong with that, as long as you're not expecting him to intervene physically and visibly. He can give you the strength to do something, but YOU have to do it, is what I'm saying.


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Rich wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
I don't agree with that. Unless your counting on God to do something or intervene or whatever, I don't see anything wrong with leaning on a belief for comfort.


So by leaning on God for him to provide comfort relying on him to do something?

That's still using God as a crutch.


There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that a person does not have complete control over every instance in their life ... that there is someone bigger than everything around us. I choose the "crutch" over the "big bang" of nothingness that made everything.

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Big Dave wrote:
Rich wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
I don't agree with that. Unless your counting on God to do something or intervene or whatever, I don't see anything wrong with leaning on a belief for comfort.


So by leaning on God for him to provide comfort relying on him to do something?

That's still using God as a crutch.


There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that a person does not have complete control over every instance in their life ... that there is someone bigger than everything around us. I choose the "crutch" over the "big bang" of nothingness that made everything.


I don't understand why the Big Bang disproves the existence of God.

Basically it was matter and anti matter colliding, right? We still don't know what created those two components....


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Rich wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
but I think anybody who believes that is being silly


But believing in a woman coming from a man's rib and eating an apple from the forbidden tree thanks to a talking snake and a guy hanging out inside a whale for a few days and a guy building a boat to carry two of each animal species during a 40 day storm and flood (I could go on and on) isn't?

Quote:
I'm not sure I know what your point is?


Some people use religion as a crutch. Some people use drugs or alcohol as a crutch.

Using either as a crutch isn't good. Using anything as a crutch isn't good, unless your leg is messed up...


I'm friggin dying over here, funny stuff!

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