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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:49 pm 
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And how did he last till the 6th round??? I mean he was NOT that good in college, pretty sure my Buckeyes spanked him around. So how is he THIS good???? Is it the system? Is he just that much better than everybody else? How did 31 teams miss on him???

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:56 pm 
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STEROIDSSSSSSS


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:57 pm 
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If anybody says it's the system...................


He's the greatest of all time as far as I'm concerned. What he's doing with what he's got...truly amazing. Tons of respect for the guy.

But here's your answer: He LOVES the game and works harder than anyone.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:58 pm 
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I don't want to take anything away from Brady because he is the best there is right now.

But I do think it may be a system thing. Everyone who plays in NE turns out to be a star. Belichick is a master of finding guys who work within his system. Once they're removed from the system, they're not the same (see Branch). Woodhead, Welker, BJGE, et al are all playing like stars right now despite not having any sort of pedigree.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:07 pm 
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kev1321 wrote:
STEROIDSSSSSSS


This made me laugh.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:08 pm 
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eleaf wrote:
I don't want to take anything away from Brady because he is the best there is right now.

But I do think it may be a system thing. Everyone who plays in NE turns out to be a star. Belichick is a master of finding guys who work within his system. Once they're removed from the system, they're not the same (see Branch). Woodhead, Welker, BJGE, et al are all playing like stars right now despite not having any sort of pedigree.


Don't be a hater. The system is good, but Brady is great.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:17 pm 
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But again, how did 31 teams not see what he was capable of? What did Belichick see? Or was he taught everything from the ground up?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:19 pm 
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dolphinjim wrote:
But again, how did 31 teams not see what he was capable of? What did Belichick see? Or was he taught everything from the ground up?


You're asking a question, which couldn't possibly be answered. All that is certain is that he went from unknown to legendary and he makes players around him better.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:20 pm 
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dolphinjim wrote:
But again, how did 31 teams not see what he was capable of? What did Belichick see? Or was he taught everything from the ground up?


How did Bart Starr go 13 rounds before being drafted? How did Bess go un-drafted?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:20 pm 
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Rock Sexton wrote:
dolphinjim wrote:
But again, how did 31 teams not see what he was capable of? What did Belichick see? Or was he taught everything from the ground up?


You're asking a question, which couldn't possibly be answered.


Bet Belichick can answer it. :grin:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:24 pm 
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dolphinjim wrote:
Bet Belichick can answer it. :grin:


Let's not oversimplify it.

Brady is just one of those rare football occurrences. Cassel also ain't half bad now (albeit with a good team around him), but it's not like BB was right on Gutierrez and some of the other various bums they've had ....

Brady has the drive, the determination, the fire, the intelligence, and the ability to make life easy on his fellow offensive teammates. I respect players with that kind of competitive spirit.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:27 pm 
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I just wonder if he had the knowledge or if Belichick and Weiss gave it to him.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:30 pm 
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dolphinjim wrote:
I just wonder if he had the knowledge or if Belichick and Weiss gave it to him.


Who knows .....

Brady stepped onto the field as a starter after that Bledsoe injury and never looked back. It's not like it took him years to get it together. I credit the player for that more than anything.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:31 pm 
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I really think 90% of his success comes from the O line. I mean he has ALL day back there. If you have a QB with an accurate arm and the confidence in knowing he will have the time to make the throws, he will pick teams apart. I am of the belief it all starts up front. Think about it, that's how WE beat Brady before, we got in his face. His worst statistical games have been against Miami.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:40 pm 
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dolphinjim wrote:
I really think 90% of his success comes from the O line. I mean he has ALL day back there. If you have a QB with an accurate arm and the confidence in knowing he will have the time to make the throws, he will pick teams apart. I am of the belief it all starts up front. Think about it, that's how WE beat Brady before, we got in his face. His worst statistical games have been against Miami.


A quality O-line goes without saying, so does being able to get in a QB's face. I'm sure any QB will be able to perform a little better with a quality pass blocking O-line. Keep in mind, when Matt Cassell was the starter they gave up 48 sacks. So there's also something to be said about the effect of the QB on the line as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:00 pm 
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Brady is NASTY point and period. Now obviously he has a good system and good O-Line. I would say its a mix. Because Brady would not be winning Super Bowls if he was on the Bills.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:08 pm 
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TheCarver13 wrote:
Brady is NASTY point and period. Now obviously he has a good system and good O-Line. I would say its a mix. Because Brady would not be winning Super Bowls if he was on the Bills.


He took over an 0-2 team that had gone 5-11 the season before, and lead them to a SB and 3 out of 4. He'd be doing it wherever he was.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:13 pm 
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One day we will have our "Tom Brady", just hope I live to see it.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:57 pm 
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dolphinjim wrote:
One day we will have our "Tom Brady", just hope I live to see it.


LOL ... you & me both!
BTW - It will always be up for opinion but when all is said & done in most knowledgable opinions Brady goes down as the best ever.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:11 pm 
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FINesse wrote:
dolphinjim wrote:
One day we will have our "Tom Brady", just hope I live to see it.


LOL ... you & me both!
BTW - It will always be up for opinion but when all is said & done in most knowledgable opinions Brady goes down as the best ever.


I don't know how anybody can argue that. Much to my chagrin.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:31 pm 
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Rock Sexton wrote:
eleaf wrote:
I don't want to take anything away from Brady because he is the best there is right now.

But I do think it may be a system thing. Everyone who plays in NE turns out to be a star. Belichick is a master of finding guys who work within his system. Once they're removed from the system, they're not the same (see Branch). Woodhead, Welker, BJGE, et al are all playing like stars right now despite not having any sort of pedigree.


Don't be a hater. The system is good, but Brady is great.


Ok. I'll write it again with perhaps the thought that yo might actually read it.

I don't want to take anything away from Brady because he is the best there is right now.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:34 pm 
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eleaf wrote:

Ok. I'll write it again with perhaps the thought that yo might actually read it.

I don't want to take anything away from Brady because he is the best there is right now.


So...............

eleaf wrote:
But I do think it may be a system thing.


...... He's great, but "it's the system" that's responsible for it?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:05 pm 
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Rock Sexton wrote:
eleaf wrote:

Ok. I'll write it again with perhaps the thought that yo might actually read it.

I don't want to take anything away from Brady because he is the best there is right now.


So...............

eleaf wrote:
But I do think it may be a system thing.


...... He's great, but "it's the system" that's responsible for it?


Do you think he would have done the same here? Or in Buffalo? Or in Carolina? I don't think he does.

Brady has "it", but you must remember that Cassel had Brady-like numbers when Brady was hurt. There was very little drop off. Belichick is a master of picking system guys. I think Brady is a system guy. A great one, there can be no doubt, but a system guy nonetheless.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:20 pm 
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eleaf wrote:

Do you think he would have done the same here? Or in Buffalo? Or in Carolina? I don't think he does.

Brady has "it", but you must remember that Cassel had Brady-like numbers when Brady was hurt. There was very little drop off. Belichick is a master of picking system guys. I think Brady is a system guy. A great one, there can be no doubt, but a system guy nonetheless.


If Ryan Fitzpatrick can put up an 85 QB rating, 2,526 yards, 21 TD's and only 11 INT's .... then yes. Ironically this was Cassel's stat line in his lone starting season for NE: 89.4 QB rating, 3,693 yards, 21 TD's and 11 INT's.

Your Carolina example (the worst team in the NFL) while extremely superlative in nature, they no doubt would perform "better" with Tom Brady than without him.

Tom Brady is no system guy. He elevates the players around him.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:21 pm 
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Phins Rock wrote:
If anybody says it's the system...................


He's the greatest of all time as far as I'm concerned. What he's doing with what he's got...truly amazing. Tons of respect for the guy.

But here's your answer: He LOVES the game and works harder than anyone.



system. (see 2010 Matt Cassell)


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:27 pm 
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swerve13 wrote:
system. (see 2010 Matt Cassell)


What about Matt Guiterriez? Kevin O'Connell? Brian Hoyer? Damon Huard? Did or would that "system" produce for them too? Could any of those guys take David Patten, Deion Branch, and Troy Brown to a Super Bowl victory?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:32 pm 
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Rock Sexton wrote:
swerve13 wrote:
system. (see 2010 Matt Cassell)


What about Matt Guiterriez? Kevin O'Connell? Brian Hoyer? Damon Huard? Did or would that "system" produce for them too? Could any of those guys take David Patten, Dion Branch, and Troy Brown to a Super Bowl victory?



if Brady goes 1 pick later to the Arizona cardinals, we probably never hear of him.
had the Best co-ordinaters. Had the luxury of one of the smartest defenses for all those Super Bowls. They were primarily a defensive team most of those years.
He's very good but not better than Marino or Manning IMO.

If Marino and Montana traded places in 1983, Marino has 3 or 4 Super Bowls.
Alot of your succes has to do with where you land in the NFL.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:46 pm 
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swerve13 wrote:
Rock Sexton wrote:
swerve13 wrote:
system. (see 2010 Matt Cassell)


What about Matt Guiterriez? Kevin O'Connell? Brian Hoyer? Damon Huard? Did or would that "system" produce for them too? Could any of those guys take David Patten, Dion Branch, and Troy Brown to a Super Bowl victory?



if Brady goes 1 pick later to the Arizona cardinals, we probably never hear of him.
had the Best co-ordinaters. Had the luxury of one of the smartest defenses for all those Super Bowls. They were primarily a defensive team most of those years.
He's very good but not better than Marino or Manning IMO.

If Marino and Montana traded places in 1983, Marino has 3 or 4 Super Bowls.
Alot of your succes has to do with where you land in the NFL.


I bet you want to take away from Montana's greatness too.

You can assume all you want to about what "would've" happened had he gone a pick later, but you simply don't know .... and your attempt to discredit what he's done on offense because the defense was good is simply naive. It almost sounds like you're making him out to be a Trent Dilfer. Regardless of the system he can make all the throws, which we've seen time and time again. He's a student of the game and he has passion only rivaled by the likes of Marino, Manning, etc. etc.

I noticed though that you didn't address any of those QB's I named.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:48 pm 
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Cassel is in the top 5 in the NFL in QB rating....He's a good QB. I hate when people bring up that argument.

He put up above average stats with a great team around him, and is a good QB. Not like a Scott Mitchell thing.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:57 pm 
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You believe what you want. I'll believe what I want.
And why would I address Brady's backups.
The answer is simple. They haven't become great because they're stuck behind Tom Brady, duh.
Plus the Patriots apparently cheated a whole lot during those years.
If you know what the opposing team is gonna do in given situations, then ya, you're probably gonna win super bowls.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:01 am 
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swerve13 wrote:
You believe what you want. I'll believe what I want.
And why would I address Brady's backups.
The answer is simple. They haven't become great because they're stuck behind Tom Brady, duh.
Plus the Patriots apparently cheated a whole lot during those years.
If you know what the opposing team is gonna do in given situations, then ya, you're probably gonna win super bowls.


They still cheating now?

I brought up those QB's because they've played when Brady wasn't there. They didn't step out onto the field and command the entire offense the way Brady did ... sans Hoyer .... but if you legitimately think Brian Hoyer would come in there and put up Brady numbers because of "the system" then I don't know what to say to that. Players (former/current), commentators, and coaches all speak highly of the man. Yet you dismiss him because of the system.

I think this has more to do with the "have nots" refusing to accept the reality of the opposing player.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:13 am 
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I have never seen a QB hit his receivers in perfect stride like Brady does. They do not even have to extend their arms. The system is great as well but players still have to execute. Its a tough pill to swallow but its more him than the system. Put him on the Dolphins with this receiving core & we are contenders.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:19 am 
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Rock Sexton wrote:
swerve13 wrote:
You believe what you want. I'll believe what I want.
And why would I address Brady's backups.
The answer is simple. They haven't become great because they're stuck behind Tom Brady, duh.
Plus the Patriots apparently cheated a whole lot during those years.
If you know what the opposing team is gonna do in given situations, then ya, you're probably gonna win super bowls.


They still cheating now?

I brought up those QB's because they've played when Brady wasn't there. They didn't step out onto the field and command the entire offense the way Brady did ... sans Hoyer .... but if you legitimately think Brian Hoyer would come in there and put up Brady numbers because of "the system" then I don't know what to say to that. Players (former/current), commentators, and coaches all speak highly of the man. Yet you dismiss him because of the system.

I think this has more to do with the "have nots" refusing to accept the reality of the opposing player.



he has become great because he stepped into a great situation. It's all about opportunity.
If he goes to Arizona, he might have been a backup for years. maybe even got cut.
Or maybe he finally starts playing well 5 years into his career. But he probably would have never won 3 super Bowls outside of the Patriots. And that is why people call him the greatest ever, because of those rings.

He wasnt very good in college.
But he has always had a great supporting cast and coaches in New England.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:24 am 
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swerve13 wrote:
He wasnt very good in college.
But he has always had a great supporting cast and coaches in New England.


College has nothing to do with what he's done in the pro's. There is no denying that he's had a more than adequate coaching staff, defense, and prior to this season he enjoyed 2-3 years worth of a high powered offense with Moss/Welker. Yet, the QB still has to execute that offense. He's done it with or without big namers. He's made absolute nobodies at WR look serviceable with his throws.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:10 pm 
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Rock is right, aside from Moss and Welker, Brady has never had studly WRs. Well, Troy Brown and Terry Glenn were pretty good too.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:19 pm 
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Not sure why it can't be both.

Brady obviously has the tools as do many QBs that get drafted into the NFL. He came into a system that allowed him to develop and not try to do it all himself from day one. He learned under one of the best head coaches and offensive coordinators. He consistently worked hard to hone his skills and had guys that complimented his style of play.

Also remember that he came to a team of veterans. He learned from good coaches and other vets. Great atmosphere to develop in.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:40 pm 
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Brady and Belichick had bedding relations with Satan. That's how. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:53 pm 
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Alex13 wrote:
Brady and Belichick had sex with Satan. That's how. :)

:embarrassed:

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:04 pm 
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jammer wrote:
Not sure why it can't be both.

Brady obviously has the tools as do many QBs that get drafted into the NFL. He came into a system that allowed him to develop and not try to do it all himself from day one. He learned under one of the best head coaches and offensive coordinators. He consistently worked hard to hone his skills and had guys that complimented his style of play.

Also remember that he came to a team of veterans. He learned from good coaches and other vets. Great atmosphere to develop in.



I agree. You put it in a good way. This is basically what I was trying to say.
he is a very good player but was put into a great situation.
I just don't agree how everyone calls him the best ever QB.
Not sure I ever agreed that Montana was best ever either.
Both had great teams around them. Both were drafted low.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:06 pm 
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dolphinjim wrote:
Rock is right, aside from Moss and Welker, Brady has never had studly WRs. Well, Troy Brown and Terry Glenn were pretty good too.


but for years he had the smartest coaches and defense and special teams.
That's when the Pats were at their best. When Vrabel, Seymour, McGinest, Bruschi and Law were the strength of that team.


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