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 God did not create the universe, says Hawking 
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Post God did not create the universe, says Hawking
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God did not create the universe and the "Big Bang" was an inevitable consequence of the laws of physics, the eminent British theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking argues in a new book.

In "The Grand Design," co-authored with U.S. physicist Leonard Mlodinow, Hawking says a new series of theories made a creator of the universe redundant, according to the Times newspaper which published extracts on Thursday.

"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist," Hawking writes.

"It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going."

Hawking, 68, who won global recognition with his 1988 book "A Brief History of Time," an account of the origins of the universe, is renowned for his work on black holes, cosmology and quantum gravity.

Since 1974, the scientist has worked on marrying the two cornerstones of modern physics -- Albert Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, which concerns gravity and large-scale phenomena, and quantum theory, which covers subatomic particles.

His latest comments suggest he has broken away from previous views he has expressed on religion. Previously, he wrote that the laws of physics meant it was simply not necessary to believe that God had intervened in the Big Bang.

He wrote in A Brief History ... "If we discover a complete theory, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason -- for then we should know the mind of God."

In his latest book, he said the 1992 discovery of a planet orbiting another star other than the Sun helped deconstruct the view of the father of physics Isaac Newton that the universe could not have arisen out of chaos but was created by God.

"That makes the coincidences of our planetary conditions -- the single Sun, the lucky combination of Earth-Sun distance and solar mass, far less remarkable, and far less compelling evidence that the Earth was carefully designed just to please us human beings," he writes.

Hawking, who is only able to speak through a computer-generated voice synthesizer, has a neuro muscular dystrophy that has progressed over the years and left him almost completely paralyzed.

He began suffering the disease in his early 20s but went on to establish himself as one of the world's leading scientific authorities, and has also made guest appearances in "Star Trek" and the cartoons "Futurama" and "The Simpsons."

Last year he announced he was stepping down as Cambridge University's Lucasian Professor of Mathematics, a position once held by Newton and one he had held since 1979.

"The Grand Design" is due to go on sale next week.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100902/lf_ ... in_hawking

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Eventually you get to a point where there had to be something/someone that was before anything else. Even if the universe is a circle of time, someone had to have drawn the circle. Know what I mean?

The science of space and the universe, black holes, etc. is something I can't wait to study in college. I find it fascinating.


Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:16 pm
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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Phins Rock wrote:
Eventually you get to a point where there had to be something/someone that was before anything else. Even if the universe is a circle of time, someone had to have drawn the circle. Know what I mean?


No, I haven't a clue what you mean. Explain WHY there had to be "someone" there.

Please educate me on something WAAAAAAAAY beyond your and my understanding.

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Rich wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
Eventually you get to a point where there had to be something/someone that was before anything else. Even if the universe is a circle of time, someone had to have drawn the circle. Know what I mean?


No, I haven't a clue what you mean. Explain WHY there had to be "someone" there.

Please educate me on something WAAAAAAAAY beyond your and my understanding.


As in you can go back as far as you want. The big bang could have been caused by matter and anti-matter colliding. Anti matter and matter could have been caused by X and Y, and those been caused by something else, and so on and so on., etc. etc....

But eventually there had to have been a first thing/being/creator that started the process. And the only thing that, that could have been is a Superior being to everything else, or to me, God.

It's way beyond anybody's understanding and will always be. But, (not to try and attack you or your beliefs), it's common sense to me.


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Phins Rock wrote:
But eventually there had to have been a first thing/being/creator that started the process. And the only thing that, that could have been is a Superior being to everything else, or to me, God.

It's way beyond anybody's understanding and will always be. But, (not to try and attack you or your beliefs), it's common sense to me.


So something that is beyond anybody's understanding is also COMMON sense?

Think about your statement for a second.

You are trying to rationalize things within the confines of your limited human intellect. And no that is not a personal attack... I said limited HUMAN (as in all humans) intellect. We may be the masters of Planet Earth, but I doubt we have achieved the highest level of intellect.

Being that you think within these confines, that you have been raised to believe in God and that is what you've been conditioned to think or believe, you are always going to try to rationalize things back to that.

But what if there is no beginning?

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Rich wrote:
But what if there is no beginning?


I've written about 5 replies to that and have backspaced them all. No idea how to answer to that. Not sure if it defends my statements or not. Lol.

The universe is infinite and something I don't think anybody can understand. My point is just that you can go back as far as you want. Just like a molecule or something. Eventually you get to a point where it is un-determinable (and always will be) what created that first starter...the smallest particle or whatever.

To me, there has to be something that started the process. Something that was there before anything else. That can only be a God.


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
I am not surprised that he came to this conclusion. I of course disagree not on the basis of science or ultimately logic but by faith.

Sola Fide.


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Phins Rock wrote:
The universe is infinite


Based on what?

Quote:
Eventually you get to a point where it is un-determinable (and always will be) what created that first starter...the smallest particle or whatever.


Based on what?

Quote:
To me, there has to be something that started the process. Something that was there before anything else. That can only be a God.


Based on what?

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
AQNOR wrote:
I am not surprised that he came to this conclusion. I of course disagree not on the basis of science or ultimately logic but by faith.

Sola Fide.



The only answer one can have when it comes to God is faith.

Not knowledge, not fact.

Faith. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Rich wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
The universe is infinite


Based on what?

Quote:
Eventually you get to a point where it is un-determinable (and always will be) what created that first starter...the smallest particle or whatever.


Based on what?

Quote:
To me, there has to be something that started the process. Something that was there before anything else. That can only be a God.


Based on what?


Based on common sense.


Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:23 pm
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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Phins Rock wrote:
Based on common sense.


Common sense is supposed to be simple and easy to understand. I don't get the vast jump in logic between

"something that started the process"

"That can only be a God."

There is no sense to that.


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Rich wrote:
AQNOR wrote:
I am not surprised that he came to this conclusion. I of course disagree not on the basis of science or ultimately logic but by faith.

Sola Fide.



The only answer one can have when it comes to God is faith.

Not knowledge, not fact.

Faith. Not that there's anything wrong with that.


Same with science. Science must place faith on its data. I'm trying to make a slippery slope argument, but how can we know what reality is true and that what is observed by humans and recorded isn't something completely different when observed and recorded by some other species?

In more ways than one, science has become a religion.

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Science is based on observable fact.

Religious folks oftentimes like to point out that scientists don't have all the answers, and therefore that somehow makes them completely wrong.

IMO, having partial answers that are based upon fact, that are observable and reproducable is far better than just blindly accepting something that cannot be shown or proven in anyway, but supposedly "answers everything."


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Rich wrote:
AQNOR wrote:
I am not surprised that he came to this conclusion. I of course disagree not on the basis of science or ultimately logic but by faith.

Sola Fide.



The only answer one can have when it comes to God is faith.

Not knowledge, not fact.

Faith. Not that there's anything wrong with that.


While faith is at the core of Christianity, God doesn't expect us to have blind faith. The Bible is archeologically sound and has made many predictions that actually came true.


Rich wrote:
... trying to rationalize things within the confines of your limited human intellect.


“If we need an atheist for a debate, I go to the philosophy department. The physics department isn’t much use.” (Robert Griffiths, physicist and winner of the Dannie Heineman Prize for Mathematical Physics)

“The most amazing thing to me is existence itself. How is it that inanimate matter can organize itself to contemplate itself?Can a person be a scientist and a Christian? Yes. As I said before, the world is too complicated in all its parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone.God is the explanation for the miracle of existence.” (Allan Sandage, cosmologist and Nobel Prize winner)

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Big Dave wrote:
“The most amazing thing to me is existence itself. How is it that inanimate matter can organize itself to contemplate itself?Can a person be a scientist and a Christian? Yes. As I said before, the world is too complicated in all its parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone.God is the explanation for the miracle of existence.” (Allan Sandage, cosmologist and Nobel Prize winner)


Dave, is your point here that uber-intelligent people can believe in god?

We all know that people at both extremes of the IQ chart can believe either way.


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
degs wrote:
Science is based on observable fact.


What makes observation fact? When it's written down? When it's tried and tested? Certain stories from history have been passed down as fact, but sometimes facts get mishandled (I'm speaking towards history). The bible can be looked at as fact, and to read it is observable, right?
Both place a heavy amount on faith.

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
degs wrote:
Dave, is your point here that uber-intelligent people can believe in god?

We all know that people at both extremes of the IQ chart can believe either way.


Just making sure that people understand that, Marc;)

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Iowafin wrote:
degs wrote:
Science is based on observable fact.


What makes observation fact? When it's written down? When it's tried and tested? Certain stories from history have been passed down as fact, but sometimes facts get mishandled (I'm speaking towards history). The bible can be looked at as fact, and to read it is observable, right?
Both place a heavy amount on faith.


You try to change all rules here. Most history is not fact, it's opinion. BIG difference. Reading second hand accounts (including reading the bible) is not fact, nor is it recreatable nor observable.

Taking measurements, comparing with previous measurements, etc... now that is much more reliable than a book written 3,000 years ago. I can show you the remants of books from that long ago with huge errors. However, there are only a few of those in existence as the Christians attempted to destroy all evidence of them.


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
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You are trying to rationalize things within the confines of your limited human intellect.

Which makes it absurd when someone tries to dismiss God or an intelligent designer based off of our current understanding of science.
Trying to define life, the formation or causation of life on earth or in space, by the current scientific understanding that we posses, is like trying to see a lifesized painting through a microscope.
Show me a narrowminded person who blindly believes in God, and I will show you a narrowminded person who blindly dismisses God.


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Big Dave wrote:
While faith is at the core of Christianity, God doesn't expect us to have blind faith. The Bible is archeologically sound and has made many predictions that actually came true.


Such as?


Quote:
“If we need an atheist for a debate, I go to the philosophy department. The physics department isn’t much use.” (Robert Griffiths, physicist and winner of the Dannie Heineman Prize for Mathematical Physics)

“The most amazing thing to me is existence itself. How is it that inanimate matter can organize itself to contemplate itself?Can a person be a scientist and a Christian? Yes. As I said before, the world is too complicated in all its parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone.God is the explanation for the miracle of existence.” (Allan Sandage, cosmologist and Nobel Prize winner)


Two quotes by guys most of us have never heard of seals the discussion. :hithead:

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Phin wrote:
Which makes it absurd when someone tries to dismiss God or an intelligent designer based off of our current understanding of science.
Trying to define life, the formation or causation of life on earth or in space, by the current scientific understanding that we posses, is like trying to see a lifesized painting through a microscope.
Show me a narrowminded person who blindly believes in God, and I will show you a narrowminded person who blindly dismisses God.


The type of science that Hawkins understands is beyond our comprehension. He is on a level you couldn't even dream of approaching. The fact that he is only one of about 100 people in the world that can grasp the concept of general relativity demonstrates that.

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Rich wrote:
Phin wrote:
Which makes it absurd when someone tries to dismiss God or an intelligent designer based off of our current understanding of science.
Trying to define life, the formation or causation of life on earth or in space, by the current scientific understanding that we posses, is like trying to see a lifesized painting through a microscope.
Show me a narrowminded person who blindly believes in God, and I will show you a narrowminded person who blindly dismisses God.


The type of science that Hawkins understands is beyond our comprehension. He is on a level you couldn't even dream of approaching. The fact that he is only one of about 100 people in the world that can grasp the concept of general relativity demonstrates that.

He is human


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Phin wrote:
Rich wrote:
Phin wrote:
Which makes it absurd when someone tries to dismiss God or an intelligent designer based off of our current understanding of science.
Trying to define life, the formation or causation of life on earth or in space, by the current scientific understanding that we posses, is like trying to see a lifesized painting through a microscope.
Show me a narrowminded person who blindly believes in God, and I will show you a narrowminded person who blindly dismisses God.


The type of science that Hawkins understands is beyond our comprehension. He is on a level you couldn't even dream of approaching. The fact that he is only one of about 100 people in the world that can grasp the concept of general relativity demonstrates that.

He is human


That doesn't mean he is like other humans.

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Rich wrote:

That doesn't mean he is like other humans.

Your point?


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Phin wrote:
Rich wrote:

That doesn't mean he is like other humans.

Your point?


You're the one that said "He's human".... so you tell me what the point is.

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Rich wrote:
Phin wrote:
Rich wrote:

That doesn't mean he is like other humans.

Your point?


You're the one that said "He's human".... so you tell me what the point is.

I don't know where your going with all this. You said that we have a limited 'human' intellect, I agreed with your statement. Hawkings is human, therefore, no matter how intelligent he is, his knowledge/intellect is limited and dependent upon his understanding, comprehension, and interpretation of things beyond the capability of human understanding. So again, your point in bringing up how smart Hawkings is?


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Phin wrote:
I don't know where your going with all this. You said that we have a limited 'human' intellect, I agreed with your statement.


Yes, WE here on these forums. None of us has an IQ of between 200 and 250 like Hawking does. None of us understands general relativity like Hawking and roughly only another hundred people in the world do.

His intellect may be limited, but not nearly anywhere as limited as ours.

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
The balance of science and religion is something I struggle with quite a bit. I attend Sunday school, Sunday morning service and Wednesday evening service at my church. I participate in a lot of the activities there and my kids attend the private school that is attached to the Church.

However, whenever they get on the big Creationism kicks, it makes my toes curl during the service. There are just too many facts that prove evolution and Charles Darwin. I keep my mouth shut during those discussions at church, but no matter how much "faith" I have, the scientific part of my brain takes over at those parts.

I am by no means a holy roller though. Religion is something that I have struggled with for a long time and the main reason that I am so involved with it now is because my wife got real involved with it a few years ago.

I have had arguments with my Sunday school teacher and my pastor over tithes. They can point out the 10% of gross incomes all that they want, but there is simply no way that they will ever get that from me. I make darn good money, but I still live on a very thin budget, due to my wife's low salary, her & my student loans, house note, car notes, paying for private school for 2 kids, etc. They tell me to put my faith in the Lord and he will provide. I'm sorry, I can't give them that much each month and have trust that my bills will still be paid. That's a whole different discussion though and I'll get off of my soap box now.

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Lokki wrote:
The balance of science and religion is something I struggle with quite a bit. I attend Sunday school, Sunday morning service and Wednesday evening service at my church. I participate in a lot of the activities there and my kids attend the private school that is attached to the Church.

However, whenever they get on the big Creationism kicks, it makes my toes curl during the service. There are just too many facts that prove evolution and Charles Darwin. I keep my mouth shut during those discussions at church, but no matter how much "faith" I have, the scientific part of my brain takes over at those parts.

I am by no means a holy roller though. Religion is something that I have struggled with for a long time and the main reason that I am so involved with it now is because my wife got real involved with it a few years ago.

I have had arguments with my Sunday school teacher and my pastor over tithes. They can point out the 10% of gross incomes all that they want, but there is simply no way that they will ever get that from me. I make darn good money, but I still live on a very thin budget, due to my wife's low salary, her & my student loans, house note, car notes, paying for private school for 2 kids, etc. They tell me to put my faith in the Lord and he will provide. I'm sorry, I can't give them that much each month and have trust that my bills will still be paid. That's a whole different discussion though and I'll get off of my soap box now.

Your welcome to your own beliefs, but I would encourage you to trust the Lord on the tithe. I can't count the amount of times I have paid my tithe and not had enough money left to finish the month; somehow each an every time we would get an unexpected check in the mail, I would get some extra hours at work that week, or some other form of support would come in. Its not my money to begin with, it's God's. When you look at it that way, it would be stealing to not give Him what is His. He is always faithful to provide though.

As for the rest of your comments here, it sounds as if your going through the motions for your wife. Would I be correct in assuming that? It doesn't sound like you have much faith in the Word of God or His provision, rather you go through the motions because it is the right thing to do. Is that a correct assumption?
I would encourage you that if your going to sit through the sermons, attend the classes, and go to the functions; give God a chance to reveal Himself to you. Don't simply go through the motions, immerse yourself in the Word and pray for answers. Perhaps you've done this a bit, I don't know, but I thought I would encourage you anyways.


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
I'm not just going through the motions for her. I do enjoy going, but I have internal struggles with some of the things.

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Lokki wrote:
The balance of science and religion is something I struggle with quite a bit. I attend Sunday school, Sunday morning service and Wednesday evening service at my church. I participate in a lot of the activities there and my kids attend the private school that is attached to the Church.

However, whenever they get on the big Creationism kicks, it makes my toes curl during the service. There are just too many facts that prove evolution and Charles Darwin. I keep my mouth shut during those discussions at church, but no matter how much "faith" I have, the scientific part of my brain takes over at those parts.

...


I think it takes just as much faith to believe in evolution as it does to believe in the biblical text of God creating the universe and life. I am not sure what facts you mean. If as suggested in another post we are discussing that which is observable and repeatable I can not think of one fact that proves evolution. Obviously the same can be said of Creationism. That is why I conclude it takes just as much faith to believe in evolution as Creation.


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
AQNOR wrote:
I think it takes just as much faith to believe in evolution as it does to believe in the biblical text of God creating the universe and life.


If you are not educated in the science of evolution... then sure it does.

If you are and you realize that you can see it around you everyday, then it's not that difficult to fathom.

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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Rich wrote:
AQNOR wrote:
I think it takes just as much faith to believe in evolution as it does to believe in the biblical text of God creating the universe and life.


If you are not educated in the science of evolution... then sure it does.

If you are and you realize that you can see it around you everyday, then it's not that difficult to fathom.



So Rich were you educated in the science of evolution? Do you see it around you everyday?


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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Rich wrote:
AQNOR wrote:
I think it takes just as much faith to believe in evolution as it does to believe in the biblical text of God creating the universe and life.


If you are not educated in the science of evolution... then sure it does.

If you are and you realize that you can see it around you everyday, then it's not that difficult to fathom.


You could say the same about God.


Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:23 am
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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Phins Rock wrote:
Rich wrote:
AQNOR wrote:
I think it takes just as much faith to believe in evolution as it does to believe in the biblical text of God creating the universe and life.


If you are not educated in the science of evolution... then sure it does.

If you are and you realize that you can see it around you everyday, then it's not that difficult to fathom.


You could say the same about God.


I was educated in the ways of God. Quite frankly I never got it. It isn't science. You have to believe in something there is absolutely no proof of anywhere. You have to believe that everything in the universe was understood by an ancient tribe of people who could barely read or write...yet they supposedly knew everything and were somehow beaten down and barely survived.

You have to trust in the word of people you would never want to leave your kids with.

Evolution doesn't claim to explain everything. It doesn't explain everything. But there is a lot there. A lot that is tangible. Provable. Explainable.

You don't get that from the word of God.


Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:12 pm
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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Phins Rock wrote:
Rich wrote:
AQNOR wrote:
I think it takes just as much faith to believe in evolution as it does to believe in the biblical text of God creating the universe and life.


If you are not educated in the science of evolution... then sure it does.

If you are and you realize that you can see it around you everyday, then it's not that difficult to fathom.


You could say the same about God.


The "education" of God was written centuries ago and hasn't changed since. Science changes everyday as new discoveries are made.

It is foolish to say you can say the same.

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Sat Oct 16, 2010 5:38 am
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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
AQNOR wrote:
So Rich were you educated in the science of evolution? Do you see it around you everyday?


Yes.

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Sat Oct 16, 2010 5:38 am
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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Rich wrote:
The "education" of God was written centuries ago and hasn't changed since. Science changes everyday as new discoveries are made.

It is foolish to say you can say the same.


I meant that you can see it everyday around you.

degs wrote:
I was educated in the ways of God. Quite frankly I never got it. It isn't science. You have to believe in something there is absolutely no proof of anywhere. You have to believe that everything in the universe was understood by an ancient tribe of people who could barely read or write...yet they supposedly knew everything and were somehow beaten down and barely survived.

You have to trust in the word of people you would never want to leave your kids with.

Evolution doesn't claim to explain everything. It doesn't explain everything. But there is a lot there. A lot that is tangible. Provable. Explainable.

You don't get that from the word of God.


If we are talking about the Old Testament and Creation stories, I don't take those literally. I believe in evolution but don't necessarily take that to disprove God. The Creation stories, and most of the books in the Old Testament, contain moral lessons; men and women are equal, God is love, sin is bad....all that stuff. It's not a literal step by step thing.

It doesn't mean that there wasn't/isn't evolution and evolution doesn't mean that there is no God, or that God didn't create the universe.


Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:56 am
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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Phins Rock wrote:
I meant that you can see it everyday around you.


See what?

Stop speaking in tongues.

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Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:05 am
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Post Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Rich wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
I meant that you can see it everyday around you.


See what?

Stop speaking in tongues.


You were saying that you can see evolution everyday around you as opposed to God. I don't know about you, but I can see God everyday around us. It's amazing how many Miracles we have been witnesses to and we don't even pay attention. The Virgin Mary is appearing all over the world warning us, and we are stuck watching what the latest on Lindsey Lohan's trial is.


Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:07 am
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