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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:58 am 
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Cornerback: Vontae Davis, Sean Smith and Will Allen are battling for two starting jobs. Davis drew raves this offseason, and he's the most likely to start. Allen traditionally has held receivers to fewer yards per catch than Smith as a rookie. But Allen must prove he's 100 percent after a knee injury that affected him in June practices.

``You hate to retard the growth of the two rookies,'' Bokamper said. ``If you put Will in as a starter, you retard them.''

Wide receiver: It's a toss-up for the spot opposite Brandon Marshall. The Dolphins see Brian Hartline as a faster version of Greg Camarillo, but this job should be contested deep into preseason.

``Hartline gives you a little more than Camarillo -- more of a downfield guy,'' Bokamper said. Hartline was 19th in yards-after-catch per reception, Camarillo 94th.

But Dolphins people warn not to underestimate Camarillo, the only NFL player who had at least 50 catches and no drops in 2009. Davone Bess is best in the slot role, but Tony Sparano is giving him a chance to compete to start.

``You've got to give the edge to Camarillo,'' WQAM's Danny Kanell said. ``More than a year off the knee injury, he will be 100 percent, and he knows the system better than Hartline. But they're almost interchangeable.''




Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/07/21/1 ... z0uKbI4YE9

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:08 pm 
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I think Davis is our clear No. 1 this season, and beyond. After that, does it really matter? Teams play so much nickel now-a-days that both Smith and Allen will see plenty of time on the field, it's just a matter of where. And if he's recovered, I think Allen will find himself on the inside with Smith on the boundary.

I really wish this team would have pursued a fourth corner during the offseason. Here's to hoping Nolan Carroll can step in and be at least on par with Nate Jones.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:29 pm 
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Camarillo's coming out party was with Pennington, and last year he was coming back from a knee injury....every one has written Hartline as the "faster Camarillo." If that's the case, why is it a competition? If he can do everything Greg can, only faster, isn't it a no brainer?

It's really starting to get on my nerves. Let's let Camarillo come in with Henne at quarterback with now 100% health, and then we can talk about who is better.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:10 pm 
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Iowafin wrote:
Camarillo's coming out party was with Pennington, and last year he was coming back from a knee injury....every one has written Hartline as the "faster Camarillo." If that's the case, why is it a competition? If he can do everything Greg can, only faster, isn't it a no brainer?

It's really starting to get on my nerves. Let's let Camarillo come in with Henne at quarterback with now 100% health, and then we can talk about who is better.


I'm not convinced he can do everything Cam Cam can. I'm not convinced he can go an entire season without a single drop. That stat cannot be underestimated. It cannot be replaced by slightly more speed. It cannot be replaced by a slightly younger guy.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:31 pm 
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eleaf wrote:
Iowafin wrote:
Camarillo's coming out party was with Pennington, and last year he was coming back from a knee injury....every one has written Hartline as the "faster Camarillo." If that's the case, why is it a competition? If he can do everything Greg can, only faster, isn't it a no brainer?

It's really starting to get on my nerves. Let's let Camarillo come in with Henne at quarterback with now 100% health, and then we can talk about who is better.


I'm not convinced he can do everything Cam Cam can. I'm not convinced he can go an entire season without a single drop. That stat cannot be underestimated. It cannot be replaced by slightly more speed. It cannot be replaced by a slightly younger guy.


I'll agree with that. But, how about a guy who gets more YPC and is also reliable. Maybe not AS reliable as Cam. But, he's had 1 year to prove himself. Let the guy reach for his ceiling. Hartline has more big play ability. He proved that in his first year in the league. Camarillo is Captain Clutch. But, Hartline also made some very clutch plays for us last year. I like Hartline in there on 1st and 2nd down. But, if I need someone to make a catch for a first down. I think you have to go to Camarillo. JMO, but with Hartline having more upside.. I think we will see him start this year. Cam will get plenty of playing time though.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:46 am 
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Hartline's rookie numbers were very good. His yards per catch were the best on the team by far. I think he wins the battle at #2 WR no sweat.....

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:55 am 
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Bess is still our second best WR. He'll start opposite Marshall.

Just because he's a "slot" guy doesn't mean he can't play on the outside in two WR sets. It's how he got nearly 76 receptions for 750+ yards receiving last season, and that was without Marshall on the opposite side of the field.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:18 am 
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Phins Rock wrote:
Bess is still our second best WR. He'll start opposite Marshall.

Just because he's a "slot" guy doesn't mean he can't play on the outside in two WR sets. It's how he got nearly 76 receptions for 750+ yards receiving last season, and that was without Marshall on the opposite side of the field.


Sorry PR but I don't see this happening. He's a great slot guy but he's not going to scare anyone lining up on the outside as our #2... I"d much rather see Hartline or Camarillo out there.

76 catches and 750+ yards isn't all that impressive either... thats not even 10 yards a catch so clearly there's no YAC getting done... we need someone who can catch it and break it... we'll leave it to the "slot" guy to just catch it and drop.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:39 am 
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IamPZ wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
Bess is still our second best WR. He'll start opposite Marshall.

Just because he's a "slot" guy doesn't mean he can't play on the outside in two WR sets. It's how he got nearly 76 receptions for 750+ yards receiving last season, and that was without Marshall on the opposite side of the field.


Sorry PR but I don't see this happening. He's a great slot guy but he's not going to scare anyone lining up on the outside as our #2... I"d much rather see Hartline or Camarillo out there.

76 catches and 750+ yards isn't all that impressive either... thats not even 10 yards a catch so clearly there's no YAC getting done... we need someone who can catch it and break it... we'll leave it to the "slot" guy to just catch it and drop.


People also assume he'd be great in the slot (not saying he wouldn't be), but when has he ever? So far in Miami he's been mainly an outside guy. At Hawaii he was an outside guy. Hell, in mini-camps he was working on the outside and Camarillo in the slot.

Marshall can break one and get the yards after the catch. Give me the guy who can take advantage of all the short stuff that will be open and rack up the first downs.

Hartline got his YAC when he was heading into space. I don't remember him really ever creating the extra yardage himself. Davone can do that. Obviously Camarillo is not a YAC guy either.

To me, if Bess is your second best receiver (which he is), put him out there in 2 WR sets. Hartline is a good down field receiver, so use that when you try and spread teams out to open up things for Bess and Cam in the slots. But in 2 WR sets, I really think your 2nd best guy needs to be starting.

Wes Welker is a "slot" guy. So does that mean he should only come in on 3 and 4 WR sets?

Regardless, we all know how it's going to end up. They'll all rotate and end up getting similar snap counts. I just think it's silly to hold Bess to 3rd down/3-4 WR-look duty. He's your second best WR. Get him on the field.

And BTW, PZ, those numbers might not be all that impressive, but it lead the team by a land slide.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:28 am 
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Phins Rock wrote:
And BTW, PZ, those numbers might not be all that impressive, but it lead the team by a land slide.


That just goes to show how crappy our receiver play was. Bess is an average WR at this point... he had a bit of the dropsies in the beginning of the year last year but ended up finishing fine anyways.

He's a good WR, but I don't think he's the 2nd best. If Hartline improves as much as we hope, and with Camarillo back to 100% healthy (hopefully), Bess could be our 4th best receiver.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:25 pm 
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IamPZ wrote:
He's a good WR, but I don't think he's the 2nd best. If Hartline improves as much as we hope, and with Camarillo back to 100% healthy (hopefully), Bess could be our 4th best receiver.


We'll agree to disagree then as it comes down to a matter taste, so to speak. To me, I don't care if you're better suited for the slot, if your the 2nd best WR on the team then you should be in there as much as possible.

Bess was a stud for us last season. I think he has over 100 catches this season. It's his 3rd year, so, he should break out. Let's hope Hartline doesn't slip into a sophomore slump with the distraction now of the truck incident. We'll see. There will be plenty of rotation either way.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:01 pm 
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Phins Rock wrote:
IamPZ wrote:
He's a good WR, but I don't think he's the 2nd best. If Hartline improves as much as we hope, and with Camarillo back to 100% healthy (hopefully), Bess could be our 4th best receiver.


We'll agree to disagree then as it comes down to a matter taste, so to speak. To me, I don't care if you're better suited for the slot, if your the 2nd best WR on the team then you should be in there as much as possible.

Bess was a stud for us last season. I think he has over 100 catches this season. It's his 3rd year, so, he should break out. Let's hope Hartline doesn't slip into a sophomore slump with the distraction now of the truck incident. We'll see. There will be plenty of rotation either way.


100 balls? I'd be with you if Miami wasn't a running team. If they spread it out like New England does every game, I see no reason why Bess can't lead the league in receptions, but that just isn't Miami's style.

80 catches at best for Marshall and Bess.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:02 pm 
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Phins Rock wrote:
......At Hawaii he was an outside guy.....


I am with you PR but, Bess was a slot at Hawaii. And so was RGM. The outside guys were CJ Hawthorne and Jason Rivers.

IamPZ wrote:
He's a good WR, but I don't think he's the 2nd best.


I just don't see how Bess keeps getting kicked around like he hasn't shown that he can actually play. I mean seriously what does a guy gotta do to get some respect. Is he fast? No. Can he catch? Hell yeah! The difference is that he keeps getting better every game. Hartline is a great pick up and potentially a good receiver but is he fast? No. Can he catch? IDK because he didn't get on the field as much as Bess. The point being Bess has earned some respect from the coaches through his experience and hard work. Bess may not be a true No. 2 but I think that he's earned the right to start as opposed to those showing potential.

IamPZ wrote:
If Hartline improves as much as we hope, and with Camarillo back to 100% healthy (hopefully), Bess could be our 4th best receiver.


.....and if we didn't get rid of Porter and JT and if we didn't move Starks and if we didn't let Ferg retire we would have an awesome front seven. :hithead: Sorry man that is just too many ifs and what ifs


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:19 am 
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finfan808 wrote:
IamPZ wrote:
If Hartline improves as much as we hope, and with Camarillo back to 100% healthy (hopefully), Bess could be our 4th best receiver.


.....and if we didn't get rid of Porter and JT and if we didn't move Starks and if we didn't let Ferg retire we would have an awesome front seven. :hithead: Sorry man that is just too many ifs and what ifs


Actually... it's one "if"... the healthy part is just a matter of time... the only real question mark in my statement is how Hartline is going to do in his second year.

Bess has done ok, I'm not saying he hasn't, but people seriously need to take off the rose colored glasses thinking this kid is anything more than a good receiver. Not great, good.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:29 am 
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IamPZ wrote:
Bess has done ok, I'm not saying he hasn't, but people seriously need to take off the rose colored glasses thinking this kid is anything more than a good receiver. Not great, good.


I would say very good. When you think about the WR's Miami has had, (Clayton, Warfield, Duper, Ingram, Chambers, Gadsden, Moore, McDuffie, Welker etc.), and then you realize that Bess had the 4th most receptions for a single season in franchise history, with no real big time guy to open things up for him, with a first year starting QB, and in just his second season...it's pretty amazing.

Bess is a big time receiver and I think the NFL is going to find that out this year. It's his 3rd year, so, it's time to really bust out.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 5:44 pm 
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IamPZ wrote:
Bess has done ok, I'm not saying he hasn't, but people seriously need to take off the rose colored glasses thinking this kid is anything more than a good receiver. Not great, good.


Rose colored glasses? No way. Just statistical magnifying glasses...oh wait that wasn't magnified.... he actually caught 76 balls last year and was the leading receiver on the team. Huh? Why did I think that was inflamed? OH I know it was the rose colored glasses....that's it!

Listen Bess was undrafted and worked his butt off to get those 76 balls. To me, he's already over achieved ten times over. The thing about Bess that you don't get is that he plays like he needs to prove things to himself and not to anyone else. He doesn't care about the other stuff.

I live in Hawaii and met Bess several times. He is a class act.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:39 pm 
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finfan808 wrote:
IamPZ wrote:
Bess has done ok, I'm not saying he hasn't, but people seriously need to take off the rose colored glasses thinking this kid is anything more than a good receiver. Not great, good.


Rose colored glasses? No way. Just statistical magnifying glasses...oh wait that wasn't magnified.... he actually caught 76 balls last year and was the leading receiver on the team. Huh? Why did I think that was inflamed? OH I know it was the rose colored glasses....that's it!

Listen Bess was undrafted and worked his arse off to get those 76 balls. To me, he's already over achieved ten times over. The thing about Bess that you don't get is that he plays like he needs to prove things to himself and not to anyone else. He doesn't care about the other stuff.

I live in Hawaii and met Bess several times. He is a class act.


Somebody has to catch the passes... just saying, 76 balls for less than 10 ypc on a team with really no other receivers doesnt impress me all that much. How many games did he help us win?

Those caught passes dont mean jack if we aint winning.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:55 pm 
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IamPZ wrote:
finfan808 wrote:
IamPZ wrote:
Bess has done ok, I'm not saying he hasn't, but people seriously need to take off the rose colored glasses thinking this kid is anything more than a good receiver. Not great, good.


Rose colored glasses? No way. Just statistical magnifying glasses...oh wait that wasn't magnified.... he actually caught 76 balls last year and was the leading receiver on the team. Huh? Why did I think that was inflamed? OH I know it was the rose colored glasses....that's it!

Listen Bess was undrafted and worked his arse off to get those 76 balls. To me, he's already over achieved ten times over. The thing about Bess that you don't get is that he plays like he needs to prove things to himself and not to anyone else. He doesn't care about the other stuff.

I live in Hawaii and met Bess several times. He is a class act.


Somebody has to catch the passes... just saying, 76 balls for less than 10 ypc on a team with really no other receivers doesnt impress me all that much. How many games did he help us win?

Those caught passes dont mean jack if we aint winning.


Yeah. Bess was the reason we didn't win more games. That's it.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:25 pm 
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IamPZ wrote:
Somebody has to catch the passes... just saying, 76 balls for less than 10 ypc on a team with really no other receivers doesnt impress me all that much. How many games did he help us win?


Well to be honest with you I can't think of a single game that he hurt our chances of winning. But, by the same token, do you think that Ricky is what we need even though he fumbles a lot and quite possibly hurts our chances of winning?

IamPZ wrote:
Those caught passes dont mean jack if we aint winning.


I actually agree if you are referring to TD receptions. But, if you look deeper than those 76 catches. You would see that he has caught balls to sustain long drives or set up scores for others. I'm pretty sure that you didn't mean that Bess is the reason why the dolphins aren't winning but, that's how it seems for people who haven't read all the posts that you and I have shared.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:07 am 
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finfan808 wrote:
But, by the same token, do you think that Ricky is what we need even though he fumbles a lot and quite possibly hurts our chances of winning?


That is a completely different token, not the same one.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:16 am 
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Bess caught 71.7% of the passes thrown his way. Hartline caught 57.4%. Cam was at 72%.

Bess' percentage is higher than Andre Johnson's, Brandon Marshall, Larry Fitzgerald, Reggie Wayne, Steve Smith (both), Sidney Rice, Miles Austin, etc.
This proves that, while smaller in stature, he has a Chris Chambers like ability to make himself bigger and thus play near the sideline with success. But he is also shifty and quick enough to beat corners consistently to the inside, which, with Marshall on the other side, should be much more open than ever before.
Bess also caught 48 first downs, to Cam's 29 and Hartline's 26. This proves to me that Bess is the go-to guy on 3rd down.

No doubt Hartline runs better Go routes, but Davone can run everything short/intermediate, and I think that 90% of the time that's what you're looking for. There will be rotation, so, there will be plenty of chances for Hartline to stretch the field opposite Marshall. But I think that the coaching staff is looking for the guy that can take full advantage of the (hopefully) wide open middle of the field, and Bess can certainly do that, and do it much better than Hartline at this point.

Davone's also earned too much respect to all of a sudden be a come-off the bench guy for 3 and 4 WR sets, something that Dan Henning doesn't even like doing unless it's his TE's split out wide. Bess is the 2nd best WR on this team and, like mentioned by finfan808, brings it on every single snap because he is working hard for himself and his team. I love that. Guy is a gamer and, to me, it would be silly to waste that talent on the bench. He needs to get as many snaps as possible.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:50 pm 
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Iowafin wrote:
finfan808 wrote:
But, by the same token, do you think that Ricky is what we need even though he fumbles a lot and quite possibly hurts our chances of winning?


That is a completely different token, not the same one.



IamPZ wrote:
Those caught passes dont mean jack if we aint winning.


I think it's the same token


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:41 pm 
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I love them both.

I could vote for Hartline or Greg 'butt Catch' Camarillo.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:30 am 
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finfan808 wrote:
Iowafin wrote:
finfan808 wrote:
But, by the same token, do you think that Ricky is what we need even though he fumbles a lot and quite possibly hurts our chances of winning?


That is a completely different token, not the same one.



IamPZ wrote:
Those caught passes dont mean jack if we aint winning.


I think it's the same token


Considering you already quoted it, I know what you were referring to...but saying one player doing well doesn't mean anything if the team isn't doing well is NOT the same token as one player having a bad habit and costing the team wins. Is Ricky what we need? That's a slippery slope argument, my friend...very slippery.

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