South Florida is Paradise compared to Southern Ontario or I as and a lot of my friends call it Onterrible.

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I wish the Heat all the best, if there is a second favorite team in the East for me, it's the Heat. I don't blame them for wanting to win, and that's what they are trying to do. I do think this tarnishes James' career a bit though. If he wins in Miami, it will not be held to the same standard as Pierce, Kobe, Duncan, Jordan, Magic, Bird, ect. Those guys stuck with their team and won a championship. Those teams put talent around them, true, but they endured to become champions on their own court. James has basically stacked the deck in his favor with "The Dream Team', in hopes of buying a ring.

This is where your logic fails to see the big picture. Pierce, Kobe, Duncan, Jordan, Magic and Bird did not do it alone. Cleveland was asking James to do just that. Every year they brought in more 3rd tier shleps and asked him to carry them. Maybe he got tired of it. All those other guys you mentioned got the opportunity to play with top caliber players and they only won rings when they had those players around them. Especially your boy Pierce. Are Garnett and Allen's images tarnished because of what they did? No one seems to think any less of them now that the results are in.

Additionally, James did exactly what everyone wants to see a player do. Do it for the winning, not for the money. Thus far, every player that has signed with the Heat has taken less money to do so. James left $15 million on the table. So did Bosh. Wade left $18 million on the table. Haslem left $10 million on the table. Mike Miller is leaving a reported $10-15 million on the table. Both Ilgauskus and Howard are taking lesser deals to win.

Everyone predicted the Heat would be 3 stars and 9 scrubs.

Ooops! I guess winning does matter to some. I'm glad we're getting those types of players.

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He would have made far more in endorsements going to New York or staying in Cleveland. He will have to share the spotlight in Miami...

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I think you need to brush up on your facts there. Allen and Garnett did not pull what James has done, they were TRADED to the Celtics. James chose to leave his team so that he could stack the deck in his favor. Also, Pierce had to wait how long before Boston built a team around him? Jordan had to wait a while as well. Its not like Cleveland didn't try to build a team around James, but sometimes the cards don't always fall in your favor. Had he given Cleveland more time, they likely would have gotten the right players in place. Really if your going to win 60 games two years in a row, you can't blame talent for your missing out on the Finals. Remember, they at least got to the Finals 4 years ago. The last three years they have choked in the playoffs, part of that has been James himself. I personally think his best bet at making a run of repeat championships was with the Bulls, and I'm not a Bulls fan believe me. I'm not saying, I'm just sayin.

I think you need to brush up on your NBA transaction knowledge. Players the caliber of Garnett and Allen do not get traded unless they want to and do not go to teams they don't want to be on.

In the end, all three players got traded to teams they wanted to be on.

And in the end, pretty much anyone you can name among the all time greats that won championships did it with help. The lone notable exception in the modern game may be Hakeem Olajuwan.

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Bosh & James were both traded to the Heat, technically.

If your not able to distinguish the difference between being traded to another team when you don't have a 'no trade clause' in your contract, and becoming a free agent and arranging beforehand where you and 2 other big name free agents will play, then I guess I'm done discussing this. Anyone with an objective eye can see that there is a difference. I really don't care if the example is the Celtics or anybody, there are obvious differences. I know this is difficult for you as your a Heat fan and therefore feel bound to defend the honor of your new players, but it is what it is.

P.S., you said in the end all three players got traded. Pierce was always a Celtic and remains a Celtic. There was no trade to acquire him, just Allen and Garnett. And for what it's worth, Boston gave up quite a bit to get those two guys. Aignes worked his butt off to build that team, and the Celtics paid and were rewarded. The Garnett trade may have been weighted towards the Celtics, but at least it wasn't as ridiculous of a trade as the Lakers got Gasol for; that was just plain highway robbery.

Purely speculative on your part that this was arranged beforehand. It was discussed at the Olympics by the three players as one of those crazy "what if" scenarios but none of these guys imagined it could really actually happen.

And sure there is a difference, but it is minutia. The fact of the matter is that Garnett wanted out of Minnesota after several years of frustration. He probably wanted out of Minnesota more than James wanted out of Cleveland. Garnett had done his crying, hyperemotional "I don't know if I can take this anymore" routine several times in wanting to get out of the Minnesota. Garnett was even allowed to negotiate an extension with Boston for 3 years $60 million (more money per year than James will make) before any trade was excuted. Garnett was allowed to pick where to go, much like James, and then the teams did what they had to do to make it happen.

The only difference is that in Garnett's case, the Timberwolves had more control of the situation than the Cavs did. But in the end, both players got traded in sign and trades to the teams they wanted to be on.



And anyone with the facts and rudimentary knowledge of NBA transactions can see that the difference is minimal.



I know this is difficult for you as you admittedly tend to give opinions without knowing all the facts (see Obama/BP thread). I don't feel there is anything that needs defending. James was a free agent. He did what he felt was right. I see nothing wrong with that. If James had resigned and then his skills declined rapidly, perhaps due to injury, Cleveland would have done what it could to unload him, loyalty be damned. Hey, they had a coach who lead them to two consecutive 60 win seasons and they dumped the guy on his a$$. James did what so many players wait til they are in their 30s to do. He signed on with other top players. Charles Barkley is criticizing him for it, but Dwayne Wade astutely pointed out that Charles Barkley joined Olajuwan and Pippen on the Houston Rockets late in his career to try and win a championship. Barkley waited til it was too late.

James isn't.

Smart kid if you ask me.

The only thing I disagreed with James on was the stupid "Decision" special. I disliked the idea when it was announce and still do. Of course, you again with your tendency to give opinions without knowing all the facts, didn't know that or didn't bother to ask and therefore have already labeled me as an unobjective fan defending the honor of our new player simply because I'm a fan. Nevermind my history of going against the grain and being very objective on these forums in regards to a team I love even more than the Heat...



Try to follow along. I meant Garnett, Allen and James. I never mentioned Pierce.



So did the Heat for James and Bosh. The Heat virtually have no draft picks for the next half decade. If any of these guys don't work out or get seriously injured, the Heat has mortgaged its future heavily on them.

Also, if you see the players Boston gave up to get Garnett (measuring their productivity at the time) it was a bunch of shleps for an All star.



The only guy worth a lick on that list turned out to be Al Jefferson and he had been an injury prone one year wonder to that point.



And Riley didn't? Riley has been planning and executing this since 2008, picking up big expiring contracts (Jermaine O'neal for example) so that he could position the Heat to have the cap space necessary to make this happen. This didn't happen overnight.

Sounds like your opining on things without knowing all the facts again...

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Look , bottom line is players once reaching free agent status have a right to play for whoever they want ... I dont think anyone is arguing that here. You can also get technical about who was traded who wasnt , etc.
But this whole thing has sort of blown into a PR mess for these guys & the Heat which as a team I really dont have much of an opinion on but I do think Pat Riley is a blood sucking , bottom feeding liar who will offer his hand when you are hanging from a cliff only to pull it away at the last miniute & watch you fall.
They way the Heat was "built" does seem tarnished compared to some of the other great teams in NBA history. These guys admitted to having a "summit" before July 1st , therefore kmowing what they were gonna do making the other teams look like fools & diminishing their chances of signing other free agents.
To then have this whole "decision" special on ESPN as well as that "rally" at the arena was arrogance at its best , but is the standard for a guy like Pat Riley (did I mention I dont like him)
Cleveland tried to surround him with guys who were available , they were anything but dormant during the Lebron years. I am sure Lebron had a say into who was brought in as well. Bottom line for this year he tanked in the playoffs. But I guess it happens.
Once again win or lose forget about these Heat teams being mentioned as one of the best ever. If they win surely it was the best team money can buy & if they lose you will see alot of happy NBA people. As far as taking less you are splitting hairs when talking about this kind of money , please dont let these guys come off as not being greedy because they are , to the extreme.


It seems also that the NBA has become less about the game & more about its stars .... going by that these guys will fit very well into the materialistic venue that is South Florida.

Yeah what a mess.... season tickets sold out, merchandise flying off the racks.

There is no PR mess for the Heat. None whatsoever. This has been a PR mess for all the teams that didn't get James, particularly Cleveland, and for James with his ridiculous "The Decision" special.



Why? Because he says he isn't going to do something and then he does it? All coaches and personnel men in every sport do this. Actually, if you look at what Riley has built in Miami, it is a world class organization that takes care of current AND former players. You will regularly see former Heat players at Miami games, from Rony Seikaly to Glen Rice to Tim Hardaway. Riley is also extremely loyal to his guys. Yes, he did do a dirty to Stan Van Gundy, but that was because Shaq wasn't willing to listen to Van Gundy.



The summit involved ALL the major free agents, not just these three.



The best they could do was Shaq, Mo Williams and Delonte West (who reportedly slept with James's mother, another reason to leave Cleveland).



Didn't realize he was playing by himself... or maybe he was! Nevermind the injured shoulder he was playing through. We saw what that did to Wade in the 2005 playoffs...



People who continue saying this do not understand how the NBA works...



Based on what? This is the first time since I've been watching the NBA that I see players taking less to win.

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Rich is right on on this. Riley handled this like a genius, and people are stunned by it. He had a plan and he stuck to it through thick and thin. The players had a dream, and it became a reality.

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My concern about the Heat with these big signings is, it'll screw the average Heat fan from a ticket price stand point.

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I'll just bow to your superior knowledge in everything now Rich and save the forums another back and forth over nothing.
I think, as well as other objective professionals, that James tarnished his career a little here. If you disagree, fine, but I won't waste my time trying to prove any point. It's my opinion and I expressed it well, The End.

Other objective professionals? So now you are an objective professional? I look forward to seeing you on TNT with Barkley and Kenny.

It doesn't really matter what you or other "objective professionals" think now. If the Heat turns into a dynasty, no one will think that James tarnished anything.



Opinions that are expressed well require facts. You brought few of those to the discussion.

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Actually I did, but you chose to equivocate over my facts. I can't help it if we differ on our interpretation of the facts. I'm ok with that, just don't treat me like I brought nothing to the discussion and pulled stuff out of thin air. We can agree to disagree on the issue.


Totally not what I was saying but ok.............
I'll give you a call before the first airing.

You brought an incomplete argument to the discussion. You criticize James for his choice but again fail to see the big picture. He spent 7 years in Cleveland and they never made an attempt to bring another star to the team. All the other players you listed that stuck with their teams had teams that actually brought other stars to help them shoulder the burden.

Cleveland was content with bringing in roleplayers.

James decided to go where he would have guys help him shoulder the burden.

You said:



Pierce needed Garnett and Allen to win.

Kobe needed Shaq and then Gasol to win.

Duncan won his rookie season thanks to David Robinson. He then needed Parker and Ginobli to win.

Jordan needed Pippen.

Magic needed Worthy and Jabbar.

Bird needed McHale and Parrish.

The only superstar I can think of that didn't need another superstar was Olajuwan.

Lebron needs more than Mo Williams and Brandon Verejao to win.

You can talk about stacking the deck or whatever, but no games have been played so that's silly talk.

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Yeah I got that, which is why I replied this to that:



People move on and forget about this type of stuff. They'll get used to it once the season starts and if Lebron is able to fill in that Magic Johnson role Riley envisions for him, there won't be any tarnish...

The only thing that has tarnished Lebron's image was that stupid 1 hour special.

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Classic!

Never cared much for Gumbel but this is spot on.

Bryant Gumbel weighs in on LeBron
by Jason Lloyd on July 14, 2010 - 8:04 pm

For anyone who cares, here is a transcript of Bryant Gumbel’s close tonight to Real Sports on HBO, as provided by the network.

“Finally tonight, a few words about championship rings. Just when did they become the all-important barometer of who does or doesn’t count in sports? When did they supersede personal excellence or exemplary character as a standard of greatness?

“I got to thinking about that the other night after the self-anointed chosen one, LeBron James, embarrassed himself as he tried to make his decision to seek rings in Miami sound like a search for the Holy Grail. It’s when he essentially admitted to placing a higher priority on winning than anything else.

“LeBron’s decision is typical of our immediate gratification era, but it flies in the face of history. Even though he never won a title, Dan Marino is still the biggest hero in Florida. And in Boston, all those Celtics championships are dimmed by the unforgettable brilliance of Ted Williams, who never won anything. In Chicago, Gale Sayers and Dick Butkus have legendary status despite playing on losing teams. And even in the NBA, where guys seem obsessed with being viewed as ‘the man’, real men like Barkley, Ewing and Baylor are ringless, but revered.

“Despite such evidence to the contrary, LeBron James seems to think he needs a ring to change his life and secure his legacy. Maybe he’ll get one, maybe he won’t, but it’s probable that no amount of rings will ever remove the stench he wallowed in last week. LeBron may yet find that in the court of public opinion, just as putting on a tux can’t make a guy a gentleman, winning a ring can’t make one truly a champion.”

Have to agree. . You want to know what I think. People are hating. Everyone is hating because their team didn't get the biggest Free Agent prize in NBA history. That's the facts. If he'd of gone to ANY other team other then said "Hater's" favorite team or Cleveland; people would have been pissed off. Instead, he went to Miami.. and they are extra pissed now because they know their teams stand less of a chance to win a Championship with Wade, Bosh and James all on 1 team. Hate on people. Hate on.

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Jordan , Barkley , Magic all have comented so far.

Pretty acurately as well. I could see the point of Heat fans. The franchise probably wont take the hit bad as the individuals will & are right now.

Face it ... this is what pro sports have become.

Here comes the domino effect ... Chris Paul wants out & be traded to a team with another superstar so he can be paired up.

The NBA has changed forever .... terrible for the game.

Next season the decision part 2 when Carmello Anthony becomes a free agent.

Assuming Melo doesn't sign his $65 million extension, of course. Paul's been wanting to get traded elsewhere for a couple of weeks now and, according to ESPN, his most likely destination is Portland. Looking at it from his perspective, I don't think it's a bad thing. New Orleans is rebuilding and may not have a chance at seriously contending for a while. If he's traded now, the Hornets actually get something in return for him instead of the finger in 2 years when he leaves.

Paul has 2 years left on his contract that he signed. So I guess now contracts mean nothing. Does he not play hard now if he is not dealt? Does having him on the team give them a chance to attract other free agents. The NBA is a joke. Yes if you are a free agent or even in a contract year I can see a guy rumbling about his status but this is wrong.

It sure doesn't seem like they matter to some of these guys. The NBA has been spiraling down for a while.