I am hopeful that Hartline takes another step forward in his development and wins the job.

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I've been on the Camarillo bandwagon ever since he caught his first pass...it was a simple little flat route that he caught on a 3rd down for about 5 yards, but it was so smooth. His hands went out and plucked the ball out of the air and he turned up field for the first down.

Does that mean he's better than Hartline or anyone else? No, but he is so unbelievably consistent and reliable...we need him in the game as often as possible.

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As am I. He was pretty good last year and I'm excited about the possibility of him playing opposite of Marshall.

This we can agree on. I like Cam and I want to see him on the field. ESPECIALLY in 3rd down situations. But, I still think Hartline should get the nod for start there... with split reps

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I am a Camarillo fan, too, but how much better can he get? He had great hands and has a good feel for the soft spots in a zone, but is he really a #2 WR? Hartline can be a #2 WR.

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I like Camarillo and I definitely think he has an important place on this team as a third down WR but Hartline has the young athletic ability to be a good player for a long time.

Starter-B. Marshall
Starter-B. Hartline
Slot-D. Bess
Four-G. Camarillo
Five-Grice-Mullen
Six???-P. Turner

This is such a better conversation than our previous years about WR, I like it. I like all three WR, Bess, Cam, and Hartline each could be a good #2. I would go with Bess because my daughter loves him. Hate to say this but wish we had Ginn, think he would have been a great #2.

I like the idea of Hartline being the number two guy, Bess in the slot, Camarilo as the rotating receiver with Hartline and steady 4th wideout. Hartline has sneaky speed and has already shown he can get open to make big plays down field.

However, Cam is money on third down. Should be a tremendous year for Henne and our receivers!! Can't wait!

I agree about Ginn. I think as a part time player he could have been awesome. He could come in to run a few post routes and return kickoffs. Whatever he gave us would be gravy. Ginn could feel like he was back in Columbus again. No pressure to start or produce big. Plus, we only got a fourth round pick for the guy.

He was a part time player and he sucked. He returned kicks and was average, including fumbling on mutliple occasions. Yeah, he could run a few posts, but what good does that do if he can't catch?
Miami got a 5th for him, and that was a steal...I would have accepted a ham sandwich, because there is no way I'd give up anythiing for him, why would I expect any different from someone else?

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Assuming he were able to actually catch a ball.

And assuming that if he should catch it, that he didn't then fumble it.

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Ginn had to go. I wish him the best success, but the only 2 memorable games of his 3 year tenure was both New York games last year. THAT'S IT!

Camarillo made so many amazing clutch catches last year.

Bess... Well, it's Bess. He's incredible.

Hartline showed he was way beyond rookie status. I was REALLY impressed with Harline. Feels like we got our Wes Welker back.

Do you remember the touchdown last year where Hartline went in motion, faked like he was going to stop and block, and then gunned it for the flat to catch a touch pass from Henne? AWESOME play and perfectly executed.

Guys, we have a seriously underrated team this year, and it's going to get a LOT of other teams in trouble.

We now have a totally legit receiving core (it was average to good last year) and the same old running game were use to, all backed up by an improved offensive line.

We're about to witness something special.

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I like Camarillo and I think he will be the go to guy on 3rd down fo sho. Very happy to see that Ginn is gone. What a waste of talent and money he was.

You are not a part time player when you are expected to start and are consistently put out there with the number one offense.

And assuming he didn't avoid contact or would aggressively go get the ball.

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You must not have watched a lot of the Dolphins last season.

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I highly doubt that. Bess was first in the AFC in 3rd down receptions for 1st downs and 2nd in the NFL. Camarillo is clutch but, I think Henne trusts Bess a lot more.

I'm happy Ginn is gone. But, I'd like him back on the weeks we are against the Jets please. Guy was a Jet Killer.

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Pete Prisco sounds off on this battle in his AFC East Training Camp Battles article:




http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/1363 ... c-east/rss

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No I saw all 16 games the same as I have for essentially my entire life. You just can't handle someone not agreeing with you.

He never played for the Dolphins but do you remember a guy named Kordell Stewart? When he was "Slash" in Pittsburgh he was awesome catching passes, throwing TD passes, and running the ball. But what happened when the Steelers decided to rely on him to be a starter? He imploded. Same with Ginn if you look at whatever he gives you as a bonus and you don't need him to contribute then he can produce. Would you rather have someone with Ginn's speed and talent for returning kicks on the roster or would you rather have Patrick Turner taking up the last WR spot????

and if all of this had fallen in his favor and Ginn actually caught the ball and had clear daylight to the endzone..........
he would have run out of bounds as soon as possible, because that's what Ted Ginn does best when he actually hauls in a ball.

Once the ball was in his butterfinger hands, his thought process in his own words would be:
"find the shideline.... and eckthecute, make playth."

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"Don Shula's the only coach I've ever met who can take his'n and beat your'n, then take your'n and beat his'n." -Bum Phillips

That's not it at all. I said you didn't watch a lot of games last year because you falsely stated that Ginn was consistently with the first team.

He was asked to play a reserve role for more than half the season because he sucked so much...
You said if he was asked to play a reserved role he'd shine, which is not the case considering he did that just last year.

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He started 12 of 16 games

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I don't know how accurate that is...what constitutes a start? If he returns the opening kickoff, is that a start?
Regardless, he was consistently with the first team. His number of snaps was depleted significantly halfway through the season.

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Hey guys, we have a good set of receivers now. That's all that matters.

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I watched enough games to know that Ginn started 75% of the time. Apparently you didn't.

Anyone who has followed anything about the Dolphins for the last few seasons will tell you that the team was begging, dying for him to start and contribute. You find me the quote where Sparano, Parcells, or anyone else in this organization said that they were comfortable with him just backing up.

You are right about that!

Your argument has lost its way. You said that Ginn was consistently with the 1st team...even if he DID start 12 games, that's only 12 plays he was with the "1st team"...in those apparent 4 games that he was not with the "1st team" he was no better, like you claim he would be in that role, than when he was "starting."

He didn't work and wouldn't work as a "backup," or "reserve," or a starter. That is my argument. The end.

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“Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.”-Robert Heinlein

Iowa, cat... please move on. Thanks.

Play Counts
Pos. Name --Total - Run --Pass - Run Block- Pass Block- Thrown At/Caught
WR Greg C.- 693----0 ----421---272 -------0--------- 69/50
WR Davone B.-581---2 ----386---193------- 0 ---------106/76
WR Ted G. --544 ---7 ----355---182 -------0 ---------73/38
WR Brian H. --407 ---4-----253---150 -------0 -------- 54/31
TE Anthony F. 900 --0 ----330 --439 ------131-------- 51/31
TE Joey H. ---588 --0 ----190 --351 -------47--------- 33/19
TE Kory S. ---115 --0 -----34 ---67 --------14 --------- ?/3
RB Ricky W.---688-- 243---228 -116 -------101 -------- ?/35
RB Lousaka P.-621 --39 ---155 --355 -------72 --------?/11
RB Ronnie B.--392 --150 --124 --54 --------64 --------- ?/14
RB Lex H.----172 ---24 ---85 ---24 ---------39 -------- ?/20
RB Patrick C.-65 ----6 ----22 ----34 --------3 ---------?/3


http://www.profootballfocus.com/cstats. ... =a&stats=o

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats? ... 447263-p=5

Thanks for that. I was looking for something like that. Can you find a break down between the first half of the season and the second half?

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1st 8 games 294 snaps 2nd 8 games 250 snaps. I don't think that these numbers include special teams plays.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_play ... yerid=3625

Ok, so looking at that chart, his amount of play time dropped significantly after his Week 3 crap performance against the Chargers...so really looking at the season in halves isn't right.

Ted Ginn became a reserve after Week 3, and performed no better other than the two Jets games, and even then it was one catch and 2 kick returns.

So, case closed. Ginn as a backup is no better than Ginn with the 1st team.

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I am not sure if your analysis is totally right. I think it must mean something that he is listed as the starter in 5 of the first 8 games and 7 of the last 8.

His performance has been cussed and discussed to no end. Not trying to cuss or discuss Ginns performance on the field.

But the coach(s) must have listed him as a starter for some reason in those games. Not sure if reserve is the right word for a coach listed starter?

I do see the drop off after the first 3 games but there are games after that where he was in for a significant amount of plays.

Ginn probably lost some playing time to the other recievers as Greg, Bess, and Hartline all had more plays in the last 8 games then in the 1st 8 games.

To try and break down the number of pass plays and formations in the 1st half of season vs 2nd is beyond my inclination. We probably ran less wildcat after Ronnie went down and maybe more pass plays also?

I do think that his role lessened after the 1st 3 games but I don't think that a reserve role completely fits him either. In some games probably in all the games I am not convinced. But if you are, ok. Not something to get upset about IMO anyway you want to look at it.

Just my observations and 2cents worth. lol

Well, I'm not sure what listed as a starter means, but I do know that a drop off in plays means the coaching staff lost confidence in him, as did many on this board.
A "reserve"? Maybe you're right, not quite that. It's not like the team was comfortable with him just not playing...they tried to use his speed. The number of pass plays increase because Miami was falling behind early in games and having to play catch up, as well as not having a very healthy stable of backs...I'm sure 3 receiver sets contributed to increased playing time.

All I was trying to bring to light was that Ginn was consistently asked to be a full time number 1 receiver. He was asked to at the beginning of the season, and it just turned out he wasn't. With another option (which there was, Bess and Camarillo are not push overs), Ginn still wasn't making plays. Was he open? Yes. Did they get him the ball? Yes. Did he catch it? On occasion. That's not a threat; that's Ashlie Lelie.

With Brandon Marshall, Ginn's role wouldn't change. It's not like Ginn didn't succeed because there wasn't a number 1 option with him. He struggled because his ball skills and field awareness aren't very good, and that doesn't go away just because Brandon Marshall comes in.

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I have to say myself i hope Hartline wins the battle>

See ya all in the MetroDome Go Fins!!!

Ginn had the phenomenal ability to run a Streak, Fade or Stop N'Go route.... thats 3 of the 15 routes in the repitoure...... yea he used to run a slant for TD's in college, but i guess that didnt translate in the pro's when the LB's out weigh him by 60 lbs.. So yea, keep the man on the roster for plays where he's beelining towards the endzone and will catch the ball ONLY if he's 8 feet infront of the DB.... thats a roster spot and a man on the field for VERY VERY VERY specific circumstances.... if they werent met, well, he was useless.... Glad he's gone, period.

Ok, and in his D...... JET KILLER!!! loved it!! He single handedly won the last 3 Jet games (the comeback on the flea flicker on a long 3rd down while trailing to win the AFCE in 08, beating Revis and costing him that extra penny that he wants to be the highest paid ever, and the 2 return game)... If we could activate him for 2 games a year, I'd be down..... but a 5th round pick for a man that has contributed successfully to a team for maybe 5 games in his career? good riddance, see ya later... (Im thinking bout the end around TD against KC in 08, and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for another good game somewhere, obviously nothing from 07, so maybe something else in 08).

Back to the original topic at hand. I think Hartline wins the job for the #2.....and Cam is traded before the deadline.. Nothing against Cam but Hartline is a younger faster version, with almost as good hands. Cam will pull in some value if we trade him while hes hot.... rather than wait til the end of the season and his stats are something like 37 receptions for 380 yards.... sorry, its not gonna happen.... Project Marshall to have like 80-90 receptions, Bess should be around 75-85ish, and between Hartline and Cam somewhere around 80-90 receptions..... where whoever plays more will have 60ish and the other will have 30ish..... trade him while hes hot that way we can get a speedster or a pick to draft a speedster.

I am in the camp that a Ginn type receiver will make our team the top O in the NFL.... #1 WR, a speedy receiver, possession slot receiver, a utility receiver, 2 power RBs, a change of pace tweener back, dominant FB, and pass catching TE's..... the formula is solid for any situation.... only problem is, Ginn sucked, Santonio Holmes woulda been perfect, so would Gonzales fro Indy, Tiquan Underwood on Jax, DeSean Jaxkson in Philly, or hell I'd take Randal El.... any of those guys would fit perfectly..

Hartline and Cam are like the same guy. Hartline is younger, and hence why he'll have the favorable edge on the situation. Dont be surprised to see Cam start as the #2 to build value the first few weeks and have him shipped off to wherever for a 3rd round pick just to replace him with Hartline who was the favorite to win the job anyways... All Im saying is, its never a great situation to have 2 #2's with the same skill sets..... its great to have 2 #2's for a BUILDING franchise.... but as I look at it, and how this team views it.. this team is BUILT and ready to contend....

If Usain Bolt played football like Ted Ginn played for us I would cut him. We should no longer talk about him he is garbage. We have a high power reciever core. Marshall at 1, Hartline should be at 2, Bess at slot even though hes played alot of reciever probably more. And Cam is a solid backup. Nobody has mentioned Grice Mullen who has Ginn speed and way better hands. Could become a faster Bess backup. I feel sorry for the secondary we face they will never rest.