-Armando Salguero

I'm thinking the problem with the Hartlines & Smiths' is that they are good players on a team with marginal talent therefore they are over valuing themselves. If they can get the money they are looking for with another team ,more power to them especially in Hartlines case if he happens to sign with a team with an elite QB. But with Tannehill still in training wheels per say the Dolphins cannot over pay for these type of players. Why do you hear hometown discount with some teams but not us??

Why would you take a hometown discount to play for a team that never makes the playoffs?

Players want money. That's understandable. But they also want to win. For some players you can substitute some winning for some money. But you don't get a lot of winning in Miami these past 10 years, so you cannot offer that in lieu of money.

I agree with you on this Mitch. Hartline is a nice player, but over 6 mill/per year? Sean Smith has been a very inconsistent player and he not close to being in the 8-10 mill/per year range. Most are raising hell about giving Jake Long that type of money.

Guys like Smith and Hartline get overpaid every offseason. No matter how hard we try to rationalize them accepting a hometown discount or accepting a fair value offer they always seem to find a team willing to meet their demands.

Some coach and GM are going to think Smith will kick it into the next level under their tutelage. And someone is going to think Hartline will bust out even further in their offense. I hate to say it, but I'm starting to consider both as good as gone.

rumor is the Lions would like him as a compliment to Megatron

Texans, Lions, Patriots, Bengals, Colts, Chargers, Vikings, Panthers...he'll have a big market because a lot of these teams simply need a #2 guy and won't want to pay Wallace, Bowe or Jennings.

5 for 33? OK, Brian...

5 for just under 30 i could deal with much more. Yes, it is a bit much, but then you don't have to bid on someone else's #2 guy for probably close to that amount, that is one less area to spend time on in F/A. Either that or hoping a rookie pans out. With our luck, that is definitely no guarantee. Plus, Hartline has good chemistry with Tannehill so that has some value as well.

IMO if we can get a little closer, I would keep him, but yea over 30 is just too much for my liking

It all depends on how the contract is structured.

You can sign him to a 5 year, $33 million deal and structure it as such.

Signing bonus - $8 million. Pro-rates to $1.6 million against the cap per year.

Base salaries

2013 - $2 million
2014 - $3 million
2015 - $3.5 million
2016 - $4.5 million
2017 - $6 million

Workout bonus

2013 - $200K
2014 - $200K
2015 - $200K
2016 - $200K
2017 - $200K

Roster bonuses

2016 - $2 million
2017 - $3 million

Essentially he'll be making the desired $4 million to $5 million for the first three years of the deal. The number would be very cap friendly. You can release him in year 4 and save $1.3 million in cap space or in year 5 and save $4.4 million in cap space if he isn't playing at a level deserving of those base salaries.

I think that would be a fair, cap friendly contract for Hartline. It would only take up about $3.8 million in year one, leaving the Dolphins with another $42-43 million to do whatever else they need to do.

This is really a 3 year, $16 million contract or a 4 year, $21 million contract.

I dont know about this whole home town loyalty thing. If I was offered a job doing what I do now for 25% more money, poof Im gone.. LOL

Hartline is a solid player, has good chemistry and will help us win in 2013 so I wouldn't mind seeing him back, but I was thinking around 4 per year would be acceptable...

Nothing like contradicting myself in the same thread but here goes. We (I included) keep talking about this as though the current available UFAs are going to be the only people available come March 9th. A lot of guys will be cut for cap relief and those guys may/could present bargains for teams that are shopping for a solid possession receiver.

Hartline's agent can float whatever he wants but when supply begins to outweigh the demand the price comes down. Then again, it only takes one team to fall in love so...

I still think he gets a pretty good sized deal and if I were asked to bet I would bet on a team like the Lions or Texans.

A lot of you guys have a much higher opinion than Hartline than I do. In an earlier post on another thread, Rich summed it up pretty well. In 2012..........

"23% of his total yardage for the season came in one game (Arizona).

43% of his total yardage came in three games (Arizona, Oakland, Indy).

He also had 8 games with 50 yards or less."

Also, since 2010 he's only had one TD per season.

We need serious upgrades at receiver. We have a very good slot/possession receiver in Bess, we need a large strong receiver who will battle for the ball and a serious down-field threat. After we make moves in FA and the draft, I don't see Hartline as anything more than our 4th receiver going forward.

That to me is the most important point. Name me one team that pays their #4 WR $4m a season. And that is hoping you can get him for that price.

Just say goodbye Hartline.

I love the direction people are going, looking at it from a rebuild perspective and seeing him as a guy that will be 4th in the depth chart in a year or so...

I just have no clue who will be scouting these talents, because from where I sit Hartline is the best WR Ireland ever drafted. And from what I read he is not that good.....

Since 2008, the Phins have drafted 5 WR's.

2012 BJ Cunningham - 6th Round (Gone)
2012 Rishard Mathews - 7th Round (Active)
2011 Clyde Gates - 4th Round (Gone)
2009 Parick Turner - 3rd Round (Gone)
2009 Brian Hartline - 4th Round (Starter)

Technically, Hartline is the best receiver Ireland ever drafted, since Bess was an un-drafted free agent. However, the Dolphins have not emphasized WR 's in the draft. I predict the signing of a top level FA and at least one pick in the first 2 rounds for a receiver. Thus, Hartline would likely be the 4th receiver.

Hartline is one of the free agents Miami needs to resign. He put up 1000 yards receiving this year without much help and after being injured from the entire preseason. I am sick of watching Miami trying to sift through other teams cast offs trying to find a starter. And I am even sicker of hoping Ireland will draft with success. Hartline is a legit #2 WR that needs to be resigned.

I agree with this opinion but once again there also lies the problem(s). Cast offs in free agency & relying on Ireland. Brings us back to Hartline .... going all out & maybe overpaying for a #2. Teams do that for their true #1. It would be nice if we were going all out to keep a #1 but I guess that is why we are where we are now. This off season is so important , no more excuses after this , dont want to hear it , whether it be chemistry , talent , officiating .... no more.

We've all heard the definition of insanity.........continuing doing the same thing and expecting different results. Hartline has 3 TD's in the last 3 seasons. He rarely get's separation and he's no threat in the redzone. We need a major upgrade to our receiving corps and this year we have the $$ and draft picks to do it.

Upgrading a WR does not mean replacing that WR.

If 5/33 is the starting point, I'm pretty confident they'll find a middle ground of around 5.5 million a year.

Kinda simple really, you sign Hartline because he can help your team win now. When all the "upgrades" that we aquire this off season show that he is no longer worth it then you bundle him up in a trade... I mean I can see a team giving up a late round pick for him, or even taking him plus a pick on draft day to move up...

People act like this 5 - 6 mil contract will put us over the top and we will not have cap room to make moves....

Or we head in the other direction, let them all walk and rebuild.. I would take Jennings to replace Hartline, and I would take Keller to replace Fasano. Still need to draft at least 2 more WR's and a TE tho

I agree. I think signing Hartline is a must signing. He has very good hands, good feet placement, reads defenses well to know how to get open (this shows someone who studies the film tediously), and doesn't need a lot of room to make the catch. I think he made Tannehill look good at times (and visa versa). He's a good fit in our offense and just needs a #1 receiver that could really open up his game.

Where is this silliness about Hartline moving to 4th wide receiver coming from?

Right now, Hartline is our #1 wide receiver. If we sign someone in free agency, we're likely going to look at WR later in the draft, not in the first 3 rounds, so we can address the plethora of other needs we have.

If we resign Hartline, it will be to be the #2 receiver with Bess moving to the slot, where he belongs.

Sorry, but the 4th wide receiver argument is a weak one.

I agree the 4th receiver argument is a stretch. And I'm assuming you wrote the above comment with the idea that Hartline is re-signed in addition to a free agent.

If Miami lets Hartline walk and signs a free agent then I would think either the 12th pick or one of their 2nd rounders is spent on a guy they feel can take the field immediately.

Its also possible they look at a discount speed guy (maybe Heyward Bey if cut, or Johnny Knox if recovered), re-sign Hartline and still grab a WR early with serious playmaking potential.

Thank you for a shot of reality right there.

Hartline is a #4 receiver? What are we going to do? Sign Wallace, Jennings, and Bowe then?

Listen, I think it's very conceivable we find 2 receivers this off-season, that are better for this team than Hartline. It's quite apparent we need a receiver to stretch the field to spread the defense. Second, we need a big strong receiver as a threat in the red-zone. Now if you already have those players on your team, then Hartline maybe your guy.

We can spin ourselves silly, arguing whether Hartline's a No. 1,2,3 or 4. From everything I've heard, we're not going to have to worry about that. The Dolphins aren't showing much interest in negotiating with Rosenhaus/Hartline and are prepared to let him walk.

We could find a big, strong tight end as a threat in the redzone. In that scenario, Hartline fits just fine as a #2 receiver.



Well, you were the one referring to him as AT BEST a #4 receiver, and yes it was silly.

Glad you want to back away from that now.



The Dolphins are actively trying to resign Hartline and Clemons, so you're not up-to-date.

Ive been crowing for it all along myself.. Keep what little we have and build around it.. Def see nothing positive in letting the best target RT had go over 500k - 1mil in contract difference...

And Hartline contract talks started back in Nov or Dec from what I remember reading

Apparently, I don't agree with your point about him being a #4 receiver.

Reading is fundamental.

I can't read your mind Rich, I can only go by what you write. Per your previous post, it doesn't sound like you have a lot of confidence in Hartline.

Any luck finding any info that says the Phins are actively trying to sign Hartline?

Anyway, take care Bud, I'm out for the rest of the day.

Gotcha something right here from today's Miami Herald:



Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/02/12/3 ... rylink=cpy

You don't only have 1 WR on the roster...

Bring back Hartline. Just don't put him out there as your only legitimate boundary WR.

Being your qoutes come from a different thread I think you should read that entire thread, I was arguing with him about the same topic, I thought he was ready to just part ways but...
Here is what Rich said about Hartline....



Not having a lot of confidence and saying he is no more than the 4th WR after all these FA & draft moves are a bit different...

Rich is ready to fax Hartlines contract over for signing at 4 mil...
However you feel we are going to splash into FA and the draft so hard that Hartline will barely make the roster... I find that a bit odd given our history of drafting and FA's

Hartline isn't a $6-7M a season receiver at this stage in his career. But like Rich said, we could always structure the deal so that it's backloaded and the team has a way out if Hartline isn't living up to his end of the deal.

I say give the kid a nice signing bonus, lock him down for a reasonable amount for the first three to four years, leave an out in the deal for the team, and call it good. I think that would be a nice compromise for both sides. Hartline gets paid, the Dolphins have a team friendly deal, and Tannehill gets to keep his security blanket.

Hartline is a hard working stand-up kind of guy. He's the kind of guy we want to keep around in my opinion. So long as the team is able to make his contract cap friendly, then this is a deal that needs to get done.

Same goes for Clemons, we need to lock him down. While I'm not his biggest fan, he is a veteran player with a lot of experience and he'll likely come cheap. I say try to keep him around at a relatively cheap and team friendly amount.

I'm not sure where the disagreement is.........It seems likely we will acquire a WR in FA, maybe one of the top 3. It seems likely we will also draft a WR in the 1st or 2nd round, some mock drafts say the first. So where does that leave Hartline..............as the 4th receiver.

Our receiving corps were dismal last year.........we need serious upgrades. The answer is not just bringing in one player and Hartline and Bess's numbers will explode. We did that with Marshall, Hartline averaged 39 rec, 557 yds and 1 TD over the 2010 and 2011 seasons. That level of production is not worth a contract of $30+ mil.

I agree with Rich that Hartline is a nice receiver and I want us to keep him, but I don't think he's worth a big contract.

You resign Hartline to be a #2 WR to compliment either Wallace or Bowe who come in as a free agent #1 WR. Bess becomes the slot #3 WR. Now you don't need to burn a 1st or 2nd round pick on a WR and can focus on O-line, DB, DE or TE. Now you have a receiving corp who makes defenses cover the whole field. Add a decent TE to the equation and you have a passing game that suddenly averages more than 6.9 yards per pass. Now you have a passing game that scores more TD's and doesn't stall out in the red zone. Hartline is a great possession receiver, but he is not a #1 WR. Miami just needs some additional talent around him. Hartline and Bess were forced to be #1 and #2 WR's last year when they are really #2 & #3 WR's. Miami finally has a QB that can throw the long ball. Now is the time to surround Tannehill with more weapons. That starts with getting Wallace or Bowe and then finding a TE to stretch the seam.

Fellas, I'll leave it like this.............I respect your opinions............my opinion is we need to significantly upgrade the receiving corps. I do not think Hartline is a long-term answer.......I want a solid speed receiver to stretch the field and a big strong receiver who will consistently beat smaller corners. In addition, a big tight-end like Gonzalez or Gronkowski would be great. Maybe it takes two years to get all that.

I do think signing Hartline would be beneficial for 2013, but I believe he'll be the 4th receiver after that. I do not want us to be locked down in a long-term $5+ mil/year contract on a 4th receiver.

Again, I think Hartline is a good receiver and he could very well get the contract he's seeking......I just don't think it should be from us.