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 Post subject: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:27 am 
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2. The more I see of Chad Henne the more I'm convinced Miami must find another quarterback. He makes too many mistakes and not enough big plays, and shame on Miami. It could've had Matt Ryan with the first pick of the 2008 draft but chose tackle Jake Long instead and waited until the second round to take its quarterback (Henne). There's a lesson there, and it's this: When the franchise quarterback is there, don't pass on him.


http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/1439 ... g-heat-too

Hindsight is 20/20 but he's 100% correct. Ask yourself...would you trade Long for Ryan today? I'm convinced more than ever that winning teams need a franchise QB. The days are gone of a game manager, strong runningback with a dominant defense. It just doesn't work anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:32 am 
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No.

I'll keep Long and trade up to get Flacco.


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 Post subject: Re: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:08 pm 
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Sick of this debate already...

If Long was a bust I would say sure, its understandable. But a guy who has played 2 years and made the pro bowl both times isnt exactly a bust...

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 Post subject: Re: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:12 pm 
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Ski_Money wrote:
No.

I'll keep Long and trade up to get Flacco.


Exactly. Long is a top 3 tackle in the league. Ryan is a top 10 QB but still uncertain if he will be among the best...granted he is doing very well.


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 Post subject: Re: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:24 pm 
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Makchell wrote:
2. The more I see of Chad Henne the more I'm convinced Miami must find another quarterback. He makes too many mistakes and not enough big plays, and shame on Miami. It could've had Matt Ryan with the first pick of the 2008 draft but chose tackle Jake Long instead and waited until the second round to take its quarterback (Henne). There's a lesson there, and it's this: When the franchise quarterback is there, don't pass on him.


http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/1439 ... g-heat-too

Hindsight is 20/20 but he's 100% correct. Ask yourself...would you trade Long for Ryan today? I'm convinced more than ever that winning teams need a franchise QB. The days are gone of a game manager, strong runningback with a dominant defense. It just doesn't work anymore.



absolutely right.
We broke the cardinal rule of the NFL.
I love Jake but we could have found a tackle elsewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:44 pm 
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sure in hindsight ryan would be the better pick but, I think that there may have been more shuffling on the offensive line. on top of that, this regime was in love with pennington. so the would have drafted ryan but still had pennington. Parcells would not start ryan from day 1.

for all we know, with the situation the way it is, ryan could turn out like Henne. you could make an argument both ways.


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 Post subject: Re: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:52 pm 
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finfan808 wrote:
sure in hindsight ryan would be the better pick but, I think that there may have been more shuffling on the offensive line. on top of that, this regime was in love with pennington. so the would have drafted ryan but still had pennington. Parcells would not start ryan from day 1.

for all we know, with the situation the way it is, ryan could turn out like Henne. you could make an argument both ways.



I don't think Pennington was even available yet


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 Post subject: Re: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:54 pm 
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Ryan is not the only franchise QB Miami has passed on since the Miami era. It is just shameful. This team is not handling personnel issues as well as it should.

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 Post subject: Re: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:56 pm 
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Ski_Money wrote:
No.
I'll keep Long and trade up to get Flacco.

Yeap, because Flacco has done so much in the NFL. No Miami fan watches Balt. like they do Miami.

Did you see him bounce that game ending pass last night to his RB standing wideopen only 10 Yds away? Can you imagine the out cry against Henne has he done that?

Flacco has a dominate running game & vet WR. Boldin, Mason, Housh & Heap.

Plus I'll admit Henne made mistakes yesterday, but again. Played majority of the game with UDFA as his Wr.


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 Post subject: Re: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:59 pm 
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FrustratedFinFan wrote:
Ryan is not the only franchise QB Miami has passed on since the Miami era. It is just shameful. This team is not handling personnel issues as well as it should.

Who have they passed on?

BTW Ryan was not considered a lock either. He had 19 Int his senior Yr at Boston College.


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 Post subject: Re: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:01 pm 
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Flacco is the first name that comes to mind. I would also add the decision to take Culpooper over Brees. There are more....I will have to read the draft results for the past decade or so.....I am pretty certain there were some more franchise QB's available over that time span ;)

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 Post subject: Re: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:18 pm 
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FrustratedFinFan wrote:
Flacco is the first name that comes to mind. I would also add the decision to take Culpooper over Brees. There are more....I will have to read the draft results for the past decade or so.....I am pretty certain there were some more franchise QB's available over that time span ;)

Flacco was in the same draft with Ryan. Miami did not have a pick between Ryan & Flacco. Plus many thought drafting Flacco there was a huge gamble.

Both Culpepper & Brees were franchise Qbs at the time.

Really & truly Miami has not passed on many Franchise Qbs, at least the ones considered franchise QBs when they came out of college. Sure they have passed on a Brady.


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 Post subject: Re: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:38 pm 
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Dphins4me wrote:
FrustratedFinFan wrote:
Flacco is the first name that comes to mind. I would also add the decision to take Culpooper over Brees. There are more....I will have to read the draft results for the past decade or so.....I am pretty certain there were some more franchise QB's available over that time span ;)

Flacco was in the same draft with Ryan. Miami did not have a pick between Ryan & Flacco. Plus many thought drafting Flacco there was a huge gamble.

Both Culpepper & Brees were franchise Qbs at the time.

Really & truly Miami has not passed on many Franchise Qbs, at least the ones considered franchise QBs when they came out of college. Sure they have passed on a Brady.


That is true because for the longest time we were drafting in the 20's every year


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 Post subject: Re: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:17 pm 
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Makchell wrote:
2. The more I see of Chad Henne the more I'm convinced Miami must find another quarterback. He makes too many mistakes and not enough big plays, and shame on Miami. It could've had Matt Ryan with the first pick of the 2008 draft but chose tackle Jake Long instead and waited until the second round to take its quarterback (Henne). There's a lesson there, and it's this: When the franchise quarterback is there, don't pass on him.


http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/1439 ... g-heat-too

Hindsight is 20/20 but he's 100% correct. Ask yourself...would you trade Long for Ryan today? I'm convinced more than ever that winning teams need a franchise QB. The days are gone of a game manager, strong runningback with a dominant defense. It just doesn't work anymore.


The 2008 NY Giants?

I see what you're saying though, and I would trade Long for Ryan today. I still agree with the pick, though. Evaluating tackles are much easier than evaluating QBs. Nobody knew that Ryan would be where he is today for sure. I don't need to list the No. 1 pick busts of the position.

But yes, great teams need great QBs. And if they don't have one, they need a dominating defense (which we could have if we capitalized on opportunities like the one Benny had yesterday) and a good OC and a above-average QB that will run an efficient offense like the '08 Giants had. We don't have either.

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 Post subject: Re: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:06 pm 
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Let me preface this by saying that I'm not guaranteeing anything on Henne, Flacco, Ryan, Bradford...etc. A few years from now some may be duds, some may be great.

Just wondering if this were 1989 how many of you guys would be saying there is not doubt Boomer Esiason is going to be a prolific star and Steve Young is crap and a career backup?

For the record, I have no issues with bringing in competition and making Henne compete and earn a job. But man, I can't believe how many folks are so ready to just discard everything and start over.


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 Post subject: Re: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:08 pm 
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You can get away with an average LT. NO does, Indy has for years, NE does (at this point), SD does, Pitt does.......You can't get away with having an average QB. Have to have a top notch one.


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 Post subject: Re: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:25 pm 
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Ski_Money wrote:
No.

I'll keep Long and trade up to get Flacco.



I agree! The Dolphins were on the right path but should have made the additional move to get Flacco.


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 Post subject: Re: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:22 pm 
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Its all Karma. Parcells screwed Atlanta by playing us against them. Sure Long was the safe pick & he is a good one but Atlanta got the franchise QB & is the team going in the better direction.
Has Parcells went to Atlanta & picked Ryan he would still be there reaping the genius talk.
He saw the writing on the wall here & bailed.
Karma kicked his fat a$$.

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 Post subject: Re: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:43 pm 
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Phins Rock wrote:
You can get away with an average LT. NO does, Indy has for years, NE does (at this point), SD does, Pitt does.......You can't get away with having an average QB. Have to have a top notch one.


exactly. that was my point the other day.
Atlanta took a lesser tackle to go with Ryan when they took Sam baker.
They're one of the best teams in the league right now


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 Post subject: Re: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:31 am 
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catman_56 wrote:
Ski_Money wrote:
No.

I'll keep Long and trade up to get Flacco.



I agree! The Dolphins were on the right path but should have made the additional move to get Flacco.
What is so grand about Flacco? Did you watch the game last night? On 4th & 2 with the game on the line with his RB about 10 Yds away. He bounced the pass. Game over. Balt. lost.


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 Post subject: Re: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:51 am 
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swerve13 wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
You can get away with an average LT. NO does, Indy has for years, NE does (at this point), SD does, Pitt does.......You can't get away with having an average QB. Have to have a top notch one.


exactly. that was my point the other day.
Atlanta took a lesser tackle to go with Ryan when they took Sam baker.
They're one of the best teams in the league right now


They had that luxury with two 1st round picks, one a top 5 and the other a top 20. Miami had to make the pick that was most likely to succeed. If you want to measure it at this point, Jake Long has been the better player in terms of performance. I understand that doesn't hold up in the win column, but Long is a top 3 tackle. Ryan is not a top 5 QB.


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 Post subject: Re: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:19 pm 
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jammer wrote:
swerve13 wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
You can get away with an average LT. NO does, Indy has for years, NE does (at this point), SD does, Pitt does.......You can't get away with having an average QB. Have to have a top notch one.


exactly. that was my point the other day.
Atlanta took a lesser tackle to go with Ryan when they took Sam baker.
They're one of the best teams in the league right now


They had that luxury with two 1st round picks, one a top 5 and the other a top 20. Miami had to make the pick that was most likely to succeed. If you want to measure it at this point, Jake Long has been the better player in terms of performance. I understand that doesn't hold up in the win column, but Long is a top 3 tackle. Ryan is not a top 5 QB.


You can't possibly compare the impact of a top 3 tackle to a top 5 (or even top 10) quarterback. There is no way to quantify the statistics to do so. All you can do is go by wins and losses, and right now, Atlanta is one of the best teams in the league and Miami isn't.

Given the choice between drafting a franchise quarterback and a franchise left tackle, you take the quarterback every time.

I understand the choice of Long though. At the time, nobody knew for sure if Ryan would be as good as he is now. Most thought Jake Long would be a solid player, at minimum.


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 Post subject: Re: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:32 pm 
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MNDolfan wrote:
You can't possibly compare the impact of a top 3 tackle to a top 5 (or even top 10) quarterback. There is no way to quantify the statistics to do so. All you can do is go by wins and losses, and right now, Atlanta is one of the best teams in the league and Miami isn't.

Given the choice between drafting a franchise quarterback and a franchise left tackle, you take the quarterback every time.

I understand the choice of Long though. At the time, nobody knew for sure if Ryan would be as good as he is now. Most thought Jake Long would be a solid player, at minimum.


If people want to keep going round and round about Long or Ryan then sure you can compare the two. Long is an elite player at his position, Ryan to this point is not. I understand the learning curve is different and things cannot be quantified. Your last comment summed it up perfectly. No one knew what Ryan would be. Long was about the closest thing to a sure bet in the draft. I think its kind of foolish for folks to keep saying we should have taken Ryan because Miami has maybe the best left tackle in football with that pick.

Just to point out, Matt Ryan didn't exactly light it up in his sophmore season and there was some criticism of him.


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 Post subject: Re: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:35 pm 
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Jake Long - 2 time Pro Bowl, best at his position

Matt Ryan - 0 Pro Bowl, not best at his position

Enough said. Ryan is good, and I'm sure will be great, but Long is the best there is right now. I'll take that and keep drafting QBs. Until a guy like Manning, Marino, Montana etc is your QB, you draft one every year.


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 Post subject: Re: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:50 pm 
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Quote:
When the franchise quarterback is there, don't pass on him.


It's so easy to say the franchise QB is there. Easy with 20/20 hindsight, but far from useful advice. I bet Oakland wishes they took Joe Thomas instead of Jamarcus Russell.

20/20 hindsight is bullcrap.


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 Post subject: Re: CBS Judgments
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:48 pm 
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Really? we're still arguing that he doesn't have the talent around him?

Give me a break... he's got plenty of people who can make plays... those WR's don't force him to overthrow the ball... he does that on his own.


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