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 Post subject: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:32 pm 
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This is a very interesting read from Salguero:

https://www.outkick.com/how-brian-flore ... agovailoa/

Puts some of this drama we are reading about into perspective.


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:48 pm 
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Sounds like Tua is Grier’s lifeline. Tua is the most interesting option we are kinda stuck with right now for sure but picking him with so many fundamental red flags over a protype passer like Herbert is a pretty solid indictment on Grier’s competence.

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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:17 pm 
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That's just 20 20 hindsight, East. Lots of people had legit questions about Herbert before the draft, and many of the experts said Tua would have been 1st overall if not for the injury. It is what it is. As it stands, we missed out on Herbert (not that he would have put up anything like those numbers had he been here) and we still don't really know what we have in Tua b/c of the absolute garbage offense we stuck him in.


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:47 pm 
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k-dash wrote:
That's just 20 20 hindsight, East. Lots of people had legit questions about Herbert before the draft, and many of the experts said Tua would have been 1st overall if not for the injury. It is what it is. As it stands, we missed out on Herbert (not that he would have put up anything like those numbers had he been here) and we still don't really know what we have in Tua b/c of the absolute garbage offense we stuck him in.


Hindsight is a matter of perspective, yeah the mainstream scoop was Tua had a high draft bill but I’ve personally said he was a 4th round flier pick to me. There are next to no examples of a pro QB with his physical bill - lefty passer, a foot shorter than his OL, injury prone & not particularly athletic, dynamic or mobile. He fit that Alabama niche like a glove and it was difficult for me to see him translate into a top pro QB…that’s what a 5th overall pick should net you with some level of confidence. I was not happy when he was drafted.

He’s the best option we have right now though after dealing into him but Herbert was clearly a better option to me, he checks so much more traditional passer boxes. I believe you can win with Tua though…you just have to excel in many other areas as well to make it work while Herbert is less of a liability in my opinion and can carry more of the weight when there aren’t solid pieces around him. Tua gets dragged through the mud more at this level when he doesn’t have a lot of assistance.

Tua’s game has to constantly compensate for his size. I don’t see a similar issue with Herbert.

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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:33 pm 
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People may take this as an anti-Tua stance, but I am warming up to the idea of drafting Kenny Pickett.

The dude oozes moxie, has a live arm and might have my favorite interview response ever after Pitt beat Clemson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quyCTLXGrec


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:58 pm 
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jammer wrote:
People may take this as an anti-Tua stance, but I am warming up to the idea of drafting Kenny Pickett.

The dude oozes moxie, has a live arm and might have my favorite interview response ever after Pitt beat Clemson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quyCTLXGrec


How high is he expected to go?


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:01 pm 
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k-dash wrote:
jammer wrote:
People may take this as an anti-Tua stance, but I am warming up to the idea of drafting Kenny Pickett.

The dude oozes moxie, has a live arm and might have my favorite interview response ever after Pitt beat Clemson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quyCTLXGrec


How high is he expected to go?


He is a 1st Rounder. Tough to tell. There are a lot of QB needy teams picking ahead of Miami.


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:02 pm 
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jammer wrote:
People may take this as an anti-Tua stance, but I am warming up to the idea of drafting Kenny Pickett.

The dude oozes moxie, has a live arm and might have my favorite interview response ever after Pitt beat Clemson:

With all due respect.

I see collegiate one yr wonder. 5th Yr player. Was a bottom of the draft prospect last yr. I know Burrow also was, but he is the aberration rather than the norm. Also has really small hands.

If Miami can land him in Rd. 4 or maybe bottom of Rd. 3 then go for it. Anything higher I will pass.


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:09 pm 
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I want competition for Tua, but I don't think this is the year to draft it. I'd like to see us bring in Mariota. He's got a similar skill set and would be a good backup.


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:16 pm 
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I will do my best to put a little perspective on the whole Tua situation. Let’s be Tua for a minute. My rookie season I am being pinch hit by my back up. Take it on the chin, because of course, I am a rookie trying to learn the NFL speed of the game and Ryan gives us the best chance to win. Ok, I’m a team guy, I will cheer on Ryan, because who doesn’t like a little Fitzmagic.

Then after Ryan practically gets us back into the playoff race, Flores tells Ryan to sit and then I’m the guy again. And I’m thinking I’m figuring some things out and then the Raiders game comes and I’m not doing too well. Bring in the Magic Man and of course he pull off one of the greatest no-look passes of all time while his head is being ripped off. At this point, all I can say is, WOW…

I get my chance to help secure a playoff spot and needless to say, didn’t do very well that day and we are watching the playoffs from home for another year.

This year, I have worked hard and done a lot to prepare for a season I know I have no security blanket. The training wheels are off and it’s now up to me to put up the numbers and get wins for this team and prove my draft selection.

First game of the season, we get a win in NE (with a little help from my buddy X) and we are 1-0. Bring on the Bills. Or maybe not. I get caught doing what I know I shouldn’t and hang onto the ball to long and get absolutely obliterated and end up with a rib injury. As much as everyone wants to talk about our OLine, I think this one is on me. Here comes all the talk again about me being injury prone and shouldn’t have ever been selected that high in the draft. So, I take my roll on the bench and watch our team lose game after game only to start hearing the rumblings that a guy that isn’t even playing football and refuses to play for his existing team is the guy that my coach really wants. By the way, did I mention he has multiple sexual misconduct/assault cases pending against him? I think just a few though. 22 if I’m not mistaken. But hey, who’s counting.

So… Now I’m in for the questions about how I feel that the team is looking at another guy for my position. Just stay positive and say I can’t control that part of the game and just put my head down and keep competing. Wait… My coach is pushing for the other guy? Well, if that’s true I’m sure he will let me know.

Finger injury in practice. Can’t play. Looks like I’m back on the bench. Hearing that “The Other Guy” thing is grabbing steam. Here comes the trade deadline. What’s it gonna be? No Deal… Looks like I might get the chance to prove myself.

1-7. What’s the chances we go on a run? Ok, let’s stay focused and play within myself and try not to mess this thing up.

Fast forward to the Tennessee game. We are 8-7. Yes, you heard me right. We just set another NFL record. No team has ever lost 7 games straight and then won 7 games straight. What a season. Now all we need to do is take care of business today.

The outcome. Well, let’s just say this. The first half wasn’t my best and it sure wasn’t the kind of weather we were hoping for. But hey, they got me out there letting it fly. Funny thing is, we have had some success running the ball but it looks like they are going to leave it up to me on this one. Halftime doesn’t go too well. If I didn’t know before, I know for sure now that my coach definitely isn’t all in on me. Let’s just say that our exchanges in the locker room didn’t show our best traits. But hey, there is still a half left to play.

Bad went to worse. Thought we had a chance to get back in it in the beginning of the 3rd Quarter but instead stalled on a 4th down questionable no call in their territory. Everything pretty much went down hill from there except for one nice throw to my boy Waddle. That was a thing of beauty. The result of the day still ended up with a loss and in turn ended our season. I’m sure I will be the reason for this loss along with the season.

One game left. Home against the Patriots. Let’s win this and try to go out on a high note. Needless to say, wasn’t my best game but we definitely got the win. Showed that I wasn’t afraid to run the ball a little bit. I kinda felt like the team at least didn’t quit. Was pretty proud to at least end the season with a win.

Go ahead and ask me if I think the Dolphins want me here? I’m going to just say this.

I don’t not feel wanted here!!!

All I can say is if I was Tua, I’m not so sure how I could’ve handled all the ups and downs any better on top of having quite honestly one of the worst OLines in history.

I do know this. If you want to find something wrong with someone, you will. If you want to find the upside in someone, you will. In Tua’s case, we probably won’t know exactly all what went on behind closed doors, but we do know by the actions, he wasn’t given a whole lot of support. I do believe that his relationship with Fitz was real and they had a sincere friendship and Tua learned a lot from Ryan. This year was a rude awakening for him for sure.

I gotta say, I’m pulling for the kid no matter what ends up happening. My fear is one day that he lands on another team and turns into a QB that people once thought he would be and helps that team be successful and win Super Bowls. Whether that happens or the Dolphins somehow figure out how to fix what hasn’t been fixed in 20+ years, but they find a Coach that can work with Tua and this team and puts it all together, I will be cheering the kid on.

Apologize for the long post but I just felt like we might need a little perspective on what Tua was going through. Not giving him a pass on all his decision making but I think he is better than what we have seen so far. You can see it on some of his drives. That’s working with a make shift receiving crew that was really never the same any given game and the reason I believe he kept going to his old faithful in Waddle.

I, for one, believe the kid deserves a legitimate shot to show if he can even be what he thinks he can be. Forget about what all of us and the rest of the league think. Give him a shot to just concentrate on playing football and getting better and staying healthy. After that, the rest hopefully figures itself out.

Go Phins!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:19 pm 
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jammer wrote:
People may take this as an anti-Tua stance, but I am warming up to the idea of drafting Kenny Pickett.

The dude oozes moxie, has a live arm and might have my favorite interview response ever after Pitt beat Clemson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quyCTLXGrec


I've been high on Kenny. Not only the Pitt connection but he looks the part. If he falls to our pick, history will be sitting there to repeat itself.

But right now, IMO, the Dolphins drafted a gimmick QB in Tua. The system (RPO), gimmick. Tua does everything in life with his right arm but throw a football, gimmick. Good teams run a few plays here and there of the RPO. It's not their whole system. In order to run the RPO you better have the players to make it work. The Dolphins do not. The Dolphins are still in a build mode because of the QB they chose.

#BreakTheCurse..

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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:08 pm 
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Dphins4me wrote:
With all due respect.

I see collegiate one yr wonder. 5th Yr player. Was a bottom of the draft prospect last yr. I know Burrow also was, but he is the aberration rather than the norm. Also has really small hands.

If Miami can land him in Rd. 4 or maybe bottom of Rd. 3 then go for it. Anything higher I will pass.


Maybe, but Joe Burrow was throwing to Ja'Marr Chase, Justin Jefferson, and Terrace Marshall. The latter was a 2nd Rounder and we all know about Chase and Jefferson. He also had 1st Rd running back Clyde Edwards Helaire in the backfield and a studly defense to help him out.

Kenny Pickett has Jordan Addison. The guy stepped up and won games for a team that probably didn't have any business being ranked.

I've already mentioned about his hand size. He has a double jointed thumb which helps his grip so I think it will be a non factor.

Finally, I personally know his OC Mark Whipple. He was my neighbor when he coached UMass to a D1AA title (great guy by the way). He groomed Ben Roethlisberger in his early NFL years. I trust the work he did to elevate Pickett's game.

I truly doubt it happens, just saying that I would fully endorse the move if Miami was bold enough to make it.


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:27 pm 
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I didn’t know his name until you brought him up but I remember watching the Pit QB play Miami last season and was really impressed. He played like one of those rare naturals. Flowed with the game, didn’t look sloppy at all.

Marino would love him.

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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:47 pm 
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cboy72 wrote:

Go Phins!!!


Sorry I quit reading after Tua says he held the ball to long and it was his fault for the rib injury.


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:30 pm 
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jammer wrote:

Maybe, but Joe Burrow was throwing to Ja'Marr Chase, Justin Jefferson, and Terrace Marshall. The latter was a 2nd Rounder and we all know about Chase and Jefferson. He also had 1st Rd running back Clyde Edwards Helaire in the backfield and a studly defense to help him out.

Kenny Pickett has Jordan Addison. The guy stepped up and won games for a team that probably didn't have any business being ranked.

I've already mentioned about his hand size. He has a double jointed thumb which helps his grip so I think it will be a non factor.

The counter to that would be. Pitts faced some decent teams, but not one tough team. The best team they played IMO this yr was a weak Clemson team. Sure Wake is ranked but its their first yr of being there.

jammer wrote:
Finally, I personally know his OC Mark Whipple. He was my neighbor when he coached UMass to a D1AA title (great guy by the way). He groomed Ben Roethlisberger in his early NFL years. I trust the work he did to elevate Pickett's game..
Nothing but respect, but I tend to look at history of players like Pickett. Burrow is the first QB to develop in his last yr and make it in the NFL

jammer wrote:
I truly doubt it happens, just saying that I would fully endorse the move if Miami was bold enough to make it.
While unlike some, I would not be happy at the time, but I would hope 100% I am wrong. Nothing would make me happier to be wrong on a player and him turn the guy that takes Miami to a SB win.


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:31 pm 
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jammer wrote:
People may take this as an anti-Tua stance, but I am warming up to the idea of drafting Kenny Pickett.

The dude oozes moxie, has a live arm and might have my favorite interview response ever after Pitt beat Clemson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quyCTLXGrec


I like that idea as well. Problem is, I can not see how we have the draft capital to do that and fix the O line….and acquire a talented young RB.


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:19 am 
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Dphins4me wrote:
Nothing but respect, but I tend to look at history of players like Pickett. Burrow is the first QB to develop in his last yr and make it in the NFL


This is fair


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:31 am 
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cboy72 wrote:
All I can say is if I was Tua, I’m not so sure how I could’ve handled all the ups and downs any better on top of having quite honestly one of the worst OLines in history.


He's a real class act and I have a lot of respect for him. His whole situation as a starter has been handled wrong.

cboy72 wrote:
I do know this. If you want to find something wrong with someone, you will.


Tua's biggest problems are that in his draft, Burrows and Herbert are playing way beyond normal for young QBs. Fans are having Burrow/Herbert envy. Tua still needs to continue to work on his game, but I do not see any need to move on from him just yet. Give him a good support system and see what he can do in year 3. I'm pulling for him myself.

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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:38 am 
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Phinished wrote:
I like that idea as well. Problem is, I can not see how we have the draft capital to do that and fix the O line….and acquire a talented young RB.


I don't think drafting OL is a priority. We have enough young talent that can still be coached. I think Miami has to kick Eichenberg to LG and buy two free agent tackles (maybe Orlando Brown and Morgan Moses?).

RBs can be had in Rd 2. The best options are Isaiah Spiller and Breece Hall. Couple of decent Rd 3 option if they are off the board.

My blueprint for this team is exactly what the Pats did for Mac Jones. They overspent for a season or two and can get out of the deals after that. And who knows, maybe light bulbs go off for some of these young guys with Flores and the offensive coaches gone.


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:56 am 
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Dphins4me wrote:
While unlike some, I would not be happy at the time, but I would hope 100% I am wrong. Nothing would make me happier to be wrong on a player and him turn the guy that takes Miami to a SB win.


Just to be clear, I do not think he comes in and becomes Herbert 2.0 or even Burrow for that matter. But if Miami hires a guy like Mike McDaniel to coach him up and surrounds him with free agent talent then I think they can get some very good, early results - similar to Mac Jones in NE (although I do not see Mac Jones having a much higher ceiling than what we've already witnessed).

I know the next question would be "why not do that with Tua?" Well, Pickett has much better physical tools and I think his game translates better to the NFL. Tua is RPO only, and as Omar Kelly says "he has a borderline NFL arm." You can do a variety of things with Pickett and he makes sensational throws on the run (given how bad the OL is and how receivers struggle to separate). Maybe he is Tannehill now, but at a much faster pace. His processing is very good.


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:54 am 
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Dan, I disagree with you on Tua on a few counts. Time will tell which of us is closer to correct.

1. I think Tua has an average NFL arm. I think the rhetoric that says he has less than that is skewed b/c his mechanics were off so often, a result of being under constant duress. I saw his mechanics regress this year, and no surprise there.

2. He's not RPO only. He can run almost any style offense just fine; only about 30-40% of the offensive plays we ran this year were RPO ifrc. The problem is until the line and running game are improved, there is NO offense that can run consistently for any QB. Look at Mahomes in the Superbowl last year.

None of that discounts or contradicts your broader point about Pickett, but I wanted to get those points out there.

And btw, we're quoting Omar now, are we? :haha


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:04 pm 
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k-dash wrote:
Dan, I disagree with you on Tua on a few counts. Time will tell which of us is closer to correct.

1. I think Tua has an average NFL arm. I think the rhetoric that says he has less than that is skewed b/c his mechanics were off so often, a result of being under constant duress. I saw his mechanics regress this year, and no surprise there.

2. He's not RPO only. He can run almost any style offense just fine; only about 30-40% of the offensive plays we ran this year were RPO ifrc. The problem is until the line and running game are improved, there is NO offense that can run consistently for any QB. Look at Mahomes in the Superbowl last year.

None of that discounts or contradicts your broader point about Pickett, but I wanted to get those points out there.

And btw, we're quoting Omar now, are we? :haha


Well, the Omar quote I stumbled on but it inspired me to look at some videos. I was watching Marcus Mariota, known for an average arm, to see his viability as Miami's backup. I noticed him hitting throws with reasonable velocity and watched side by side with Tua's throws. It is a noticeable difference and verifies Omar's point.

As for RPO, yeah that is where Tua is going to either prove it or not. I'd say the same for Mac Jones and previously limited QBs (Alex Smith, Chad Pennington, etc.).

The discussion is pointless now because Ian Rapoport just reported that Miami is not only going with Tua for 2022 but are trying to get a coach who will work with him. Similar to Gase and Tannehill in 2016. I'm hoping this time that if the new coach is less than impressed he at least gets to cut bait going into 2023.


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:57 pm 
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jammer wrote:
The discussion is pointless now because Ian Rapoport just reported that Miami is not only going with Tua for 2022 but are trying to get a coach who will work with him. Similar to Gase and Tannehill in 2016. I'm hoping this time that if the new coach is less than impressed he at least gets to cut bait going into 2023.

If that is the case then I would expect Daboll would be the next HC, simply because he does have a history with Tua. Other than that I do not expect many quality HC willing to take on a player they may not truly want.


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:40 pm 
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Dphins4me wrote:
jammer wrote:
The discussion is pointless now because Ian Rapoport just reported that Miami is not only going with Tua for 2022 but are trying to get a coach who will work with him. Similar to Gase and Tannehill in 2016. I'm hoping this time that if the new coach is less than impressed he at least gets to cut bait going into 2023.

If that is the case then I would expect Daboll would be the next HC, simply because he does have a history with Tua. Other than that I do not expect many quality HC willing to take on a player they may not truly want.


He is the current Vegas favorite for Miami. I still think Mike McDaniel might be the guy as Ross loves him so offensive geniuses.

There has to be a handshake agreement that if the coach feels by end of summer or midpoint of the season that Tua isn't the guy then they'll be able to workout rookies prior to the 2023 draft.


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:35 pm 
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jammer wrote:
k-dash wrote:
Dan, I disagree with you on Tua on a few counts. Time will tell which of us is closer to correct.

1. I think Tua has an average NFL arm. I think the rhetoric that says he has less than that is skewed b/c his mechanics were off so often, a result of being under constant duress. I saw his mechanics regress this year, and no surprise there.

2. He's not RPO only. He can run almost any style offense just fine; only about 30-40% of the offensive plays we ran this year were RPO ifrc. The problem is until the line and running game are improved, there is NO offense that can run consistently for any QB. Look at Mahomes in the Superbowl last year.

None of that discounts or contradicts your broader point about Pickett, but I wanted to get those points out there.

And btw, we're quoting Omar now, are we? :haha


Well, the Omar quote I stumbled on but it inspired me to look at some videos. I was watching Marcus Mariota, known for an average arm, to see his viability as Miami's backup. I noticed him hitting throws with reasonable velocity and watched side by side with Tua's throws. It is a noticeable difference and verifies Omar's point.

As for RPO, yeah that is where Tua is going to either prove it or not. I'd say the same for Mac Jones and previously limited QBs (Alex Smith, Chad Pennington, etc.).

The discussion is pointless now because Ian Rapoport just reported that Miami is not only going with Tua for 2022 but are trying to get a coach who will work with him. Similar to Gase and Tannehill in 2016. I'm hoping this time that if the new coach is less than impressed he at least gets to cut bait going into 2023.

We are watching something different then. I do not see a problem at all with his velocity on most throws. Yes, there were some stinkers towards the end of the season in bad weather and when defenses began defending the first and second levels to take the quick throws away. But there were outside throws 10-15 yards downfield that got there on time and some 40-50 yard throws downfield that hit receivers in stride. See the throw to Mack Hollins against the Saints as an example. Also I believe it was Ian Wharton that said the underthrow to Hollins against the Jets traveler as fast as Jordan Love’s ball, which was the best arm in the draft that year.


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:38 pm 
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Rich wrote:
jammer wrote:
k-dash wrote:
Dan, I disagree with you on Tua on a few counts. Time will tell which of us is closer to correct.

1. I think Tua has an average NFL arm. I think the rhetoric that says he has less than that is skewed b/c his mechanics were off so often, a result of being under constant duress. I saw his mechanics regress this year, and no surprise there.

2. He's not RPO only. He can run almost any style offense just fine; only about 30-40% of the offensive plays we ran this year were RPO ifrc. The problem is until the line and running game are improved, there is NO offense that can run consistently for any QB. Look at Mahomes in the Superbowl last year.

None of that discounts or contradicts your broader point about Pickett, but I wanted to get those points out there.

And btw, we're quoting Omar now, are we? :haha


Well, the Omar quote I stumbled on but it inspired me to look at some videos. I was watching Marcus Mariota, known for an average arm, to see his viability as Miami's backup. I noticed him hitting throws with reasonable velocity and watched side by side with Tua's throws. It is a noticeable difference and verifies Omar's point.

As for RPO, yeah that is where Tua is going to either prove it or not. I'd say the same for Mac Jones and previously limited QBs (Alex Smith, Chad Pennington, etc.).

The discussion is pointless now because Ian Rapoport just reported that Miami is not only going with Tua for 2022 but are trying to get a coach who will work with him. Similar to Gase and Tannehill in 2016. I'm hoping this time that if the new coach is less than impressed he at least gets to cut bait going into 2023.

We are watching something different then. I do not see a problem at all with his velocity on most throws. Yes, there were some stinkers towards the end of the season in bad weather and when defenses began defending the first and second levels to take the quick throws away. But there were outside throws 10-15 yards downfield that got there on time and some 40-50 yard throws downfield that hit receivers in stride. See the throw to Mack Hollins against the Saints as an example. Also I believe it was Ian Wharton that said the underthrow to Hollins against the Jets traveler as fast as Jordan Love’s ball, which was the best arm in the draft that year.


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:16 pm 
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Like I said, when his throws are off it's almost always a problem with mechanics, which is a usually a byproduct of the lack of even reasonable protection. Hopefully that improves now...

I mean, we can hope, right?


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:21 am 
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Rich wrote:
We are watching something different then. I do not see a problem at all with his velocity on most throws. Yes, there were some stinkers towards the end of the season in bad weather and when defenses began defending the first and second levels to take the quick throws away. But there were outside throws 10-15 yards downfield that got there on time and some 40-50 yard throws downfield that hit receivers in stride. See the throw to Mack Hollins against the Saints as an example. Also I believe it was Ian Wharton that said the underthrow to Hollins against the Jets traveler as fast as Jordan Love’s ball, which was the best arm in the draft that year.


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Over the middle throws are one thing. He can't hit 15 yard outs with reasonable speed and some of his throws on the run tend to fade. It wasn't just the Tennessee game, it goes back to the beginning of the season and last year.

Matt Moore threw one of the best deep balls I've ever seen, but he lacked a good enough arm for other types of throws and that got him in trouble. Tua falls into the same category. I'm not the only person saying he is limited and the people who frequently watch him in person tend to be the loudest voices on this.


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:22 am 
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Phin wrote:
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Except they aren't. Apples to oranges.


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:22 am 
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k-dash wrote:
Like I said, when his throws are off it's almost always a problem with mechanics, which is a usually a byproduct of the lack of even reasonable protection. Hopefully that improves now...

I mean, we can hope, right?


This I can agree with. But is he going to make those changes?


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:20 am 
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jammer wrote:
k-dash wrote:
Like I said, when his throws are off it's almost always a problem with mechanics, which is a usually a byproduct of the lack of even reasonable protection. Hopefully that improves now...

I mean, we can hope, right?


This I can agree with. But is he going to make those changes?


If I am reading this correctly then the suggestion is that the problems Tua has throwing is because of the oline. Besides advocating for the GM position to pick his own line and coaches to coach them how would Tua go about fixing this situation?


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:36 pm 
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jammer wrote:
Rich wrote:
We are watching something different then. I do not see a problem at all with his velocity on most throws. Yes, there were some stinkers towards the end of the season in bad weather and when defenses began defending the first and second levels to take the quick throws away. But there were outside throws 10-15 yards downfield that got there on time and some 40-50 yard throws downfield that hit receivers in stride. See the throw to Mack Hollins against the Saints as an example. Also I believe it was Ian Wharton that said the underthrow to Hollins against the Jets traveler as fast as Jordan Love’s ball, which was the best arm in the draft that year.


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Over the middle throws are one thing. He can't hit 15 yard outs with reasonable speed and some of his throws on the run tend to fade. It wasn't just the Tennessee game, it goes back to the beginning of the season and last year.

Matt Moore threw one of the best deep balls I've ever seen, but he lacked a good enough arm for other types of throws and that got him in trouble. Tua falls into the same category. I'm not the only person saying he is limited and the people who frequently watch him in person tend to be the loudest voices on this.

As I mentioned in my post, 15 yard throws to the outside. On time and on the money. I never mentioned over the middle.

If I have time, I will look at film to post.

As for critics, I was one of the loudest. When I watch film, my opinion adjusts.


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:10 am 
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I can see Tua having a good career in Miami provided the team puts together a solid O line and running game. Kind of like the second coming of Jay Fiedler.


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:03 pm 
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Rich wrote:
As I mentioned in my post, 15 yard throws to the outside. On time and on the money. I never mentioned over the middle.

If I have time, I will look at film to post.

As for critics, I was one of the loudest. When I watch film, my opinion adjusts.


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I will look again for the outs. I remember not liking what I saw.

I only added over the middle because he does make nice, strong throws in that area.

I don't think it is coincidence that every single local guy, plus the two who left for national gigs (Salguero and Beasley) all say the same thing about his arm. They watch him in person frequently. I've noticed that his throws over 10-15 yards seem to be a split second slower than guys I expected to have similar or weaker arms.

He can be a good QB in this league. But he better be Drew Brees if Miami expects to be a consistent title threat with him. I've said that from Day 1.


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:17 pm 
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jammer wrote:
Rich wrote:
As I mentioned in my post, 15 yard throws to the outside. On time and on the money. I never mentioned over the middle.

If I have time, I will look at film to post.

As for critics, I was one of the loudest. When I watch film, my opinion adjusts.


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I will look again for the outs. I remember not liking what I saw.

I only added over the middle because he does make nice, strong throws in that area.

I don't think it is coincidence that every single local guy, plus the two who left for national gigs (Salguero and Beasley) all say the same thing about his arm. They watch him in person frequently. I've noticed that his throws over 10-15 yards seem to be a split second slower than guys I expected to have similar or weaker arms.

He can be a good QB in this league. But he better be Drew Brees if Miami expects to be a consistent title threat with him. I've said that from Day 1.


That's kinda funny. I'm just chiming in about the Tua better be Drew Brees comment only. It took Brees 5+ years before he became a really good NFL QB. With that all the success he is known for came after leaving the team that originally drafted him.


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:02 pm 
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keebler_kahn wrote:
That's kinda funny. I'm just chiming in about the Tua better be Drew Brees comment only. It took Brees 5+ years before he became a really good NFL QB. With that all the success he is known for came after leaving the team that originally drafted him.


Yup. Brees and Montana are two of the best of all time and had average at best arm strength. Most of the other guys who had their arm strength held clip boards after a few seasons. This is why GMs target guys with elite physical traits.

The Chargers gave up on Brees because of injury (same reason Miami passed on him for Culpepper). But you are right, it takes time for the cerebral guys to fully blossom. Burrow is kind of an exception.

I don't have the answers. I have supported Tua and will continue to support him if he remains Miami's starter. But I'd be lying if I said I didn't have my reservations. The only game of his that wowed me this year was the comeback versus Atlanta. Give me more of that and I'll change my tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:22 pm 
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I just rewatched the Atlanta highlights and one thing that really stood out is how much our O-line regressed through the season. It really looked like he had a much better pocket in that game than in any of the late-season games. The o-line coaching was just awful this year. The offensive staff was Flores' biggest downfall.


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:38 am 
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jammer wrote:
The Chargers gave up on Brees because of injury (same reason Miami passed on him for Culpepper). But you are right, it takes time for the cerebral guys to fully blossom. Burrow is kind of an exception.


Another "Joe Cool"? Burrows is fun to watch.


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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:40 am 
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jammer wrote:
Rich wrote:
As I mentioned in my post, 15 yard throws to the outside. On time and on the money. I never mentioned over the middle.

If I have time, I will look at film to post.

As for critics, I was one of the loudest. When I watch film, my opinion adjusts.


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I will look again for the outs. I remember not liking what I saw.

I only added over the middle because he does make nice, strong throws in that area.

I don't think it is coincidence that every single local guy, plus the two who left for national gigs (Salguero and Beasley) all say the same thing about his arm. They watch him in person frequently. I've noticed that his throws over 10-15 yards seem to be a split second slower than guys I expected to have similar or weaker arms.

He can be a good QB in this league. But he better be Drew Brees if Miami expects to be a consistent title threat with him. I've said that from Day 1.


Look at the Tennessee game again if you can stomach it. Literally all he did right that day was hit Waddle and Gesicki on outs. The one to Gesicki was about 12 yards downfield and on the money. His problem was actually mostly overthrowing guys downfield.

As for the local beat writers, most of those guys think arm strength is measured in how far a QB can throw the ball and since they see Tua mostly throwing short quick passes (due to the system and the offensive line which causes us to use that system) I discount most of their opinions. Most of them were bashing Tannehill's arm strength when he wasn't completing deep passes when we know he has plenty of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Flores and Tua
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:49 am 
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So, here's the Tennessee game. Based on his passes in previous games, he had issues handling the ball. I'm surprised he didn't go with a glove in the second half. Probably too busy exchanging F-bombs with Flores.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_Ja2Dn8ugc

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