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 Post subject: Unhinged
PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:13 am 
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At this moment, I think everyone will agree that Herbert looks to be the better pick between he and Tua. No one knows long-term how they will turn out, but the NFL is about which team is the championship team this year. Herbert never showed any of this at Oregon, but it is what it is. I still think it is very fair to allow Tua to continue to grow into the position this year. Unfortunately, without an OL, it's going to be a hard learning process for him. I do think we can fix things on offense, but it is up to our coaches to bury the pride and do what needs to be done. Blaming it on the players not executing is something we've heard every year when players do not get the scheme. We've found in the past that it is usually the scheme, not the players as they are doing their best on the field.


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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:46 am 
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I disagree on Herbert never showing it at Oregon. He had some great moments down the stretch of his senior year, capping it with a gutsy Rose Bowl performance.

The knock was his personality and he started coming out of his shell that year and through the draft process.

A lot of us here, and in Dolphin land, were told to be shell shocked because he would be Tannehill 2.0 who would take forever to develop. I myself looked more at Jordan Love to avoid a lot of fights with people saying Herbert would be Tannehill all over again. I was wrong.

Chris Grier and Steve Ross decided back in 2018 they wanted Tua. They led the media and all else to get on board, basically attempted a tank to get him, and were blinded in the process. Some of the draftniks were so pro-Tua that any attempt to discuss other options ended with "you don't know football." The same guys are now saying its too early to make comparisons while we watch Herbert deliver unbelievably accurate wheel route TDs and tight window throws which Tua doesn't have the mustard for.

I believe I said this way back when, but the limitations we saw with both Tua and Herbert are still on display in the NFL. The difference is the size, arm strength and mobility of Herbert allows him to get away with the slower processing while he develops. Tua on the other hand cannot escape his size, durability and tendency to play hero ball when things collapse. Unless Tua turns a major corner in the next month or so we will constantly be reminded of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:10 am 
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jammer wrote:
I disagree on Herbert never showing it at Oregon. He had some great moments down the stretch of his senior year, capping it with a gutsy Rose Bowl performance.


I disagree with your disagreement.

:haha

Herbert NEVER showed that he was better than Tua, especially in the big games. Of course, looking back, we see that loaded group of WRs, but Tua was so accurate and smart at Alabama.

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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:23 am 
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Big Dave wrote:
jammer wrote:
I disagree on Herbert never showing it at Oregon. He had some great moments down the stretch of his senior year, capping it with a gutsy Rose Bowl performance.


I disagree with your disagreement.

:haha

Herbert NEVER showed that he was better than Tua, especially in the big games. Of course, looking back, we see that loaded group of WRs, but Tua was so accurate and smart at Alabama.

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https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/pl ... loa-1.html


Colt McCoy showed more in college than Matt Stafford. What's your point?


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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:37 am 
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jammer wrote:
Big Dave wrote:
jammer wrote:
I disagree on Herbert never showing it at Oregon. He had some great moments down the stretch of his senior year, capping it with a gutsy Rose Bowl performance.


I disagree with your disagreement.

:haha

Herbert NEVER showed that he was better than Tua, especially in the big games. Of course, looking back, we see that loaded group of WRs, but Tua was so accurate and smart at Alabama.

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https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/pl ... loa-1.html


Colt McCoy showed more in college than Matt Stafford. What's your point?


That's why Tua was drafted before Herbert, and just about everyone had Tua ranked higher than Herbert. In fact, if Tua didn't have that hip injury, most said he would have been the first QB drafted. That's pretty much the point I am making about it. The Dolphins loved Herbert after his sophomore season and really wanted him, but he took a step backwards his junior year forcing him to go back for his senior season where he got his mojo back.

BTW, isn't Colt McCoy a bad comparison? Everyone knew he wasn't a first round pick which is why he wasn't drafted until the 3rd round.

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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:45 am 
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I think it is very hard to evaluate college QBs who play for perennial powerhouses like OSU and Alabama. They have such great OLs and skill position players that their deficiencies are often hidden. In the NFL it is very important to be able to make quick decisions under duress, and that just doesn't happen very often to Alabama and OSU quarterbacks. So, not only can we not evaluate it very well (only in a small handful of games where they play a great defense), but they don't get much practice at it. There is something to be said for college QBs who play behind mediocre lines without superb receivers and perform well anyway. You have to look at their best games, not their worst games, to see their ceiling.

As for "leadership" skills ... I dunno. QBs who throw accurate lasers and win games are probably going to win over the teammates. They can't be jerks, of course, but playing well dwarfs the ability to lead the team in singing a round of Kumbya.


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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:07 am 
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Big Dave wrote:
That's why Tua was drafted before Herbert, and just about everyone had Tua ranked higher than Herbert. In fact, if Tua didn't have that hip injury, most said he would have been the first QB drafted. That's pretty much the point I am making about it. The Dolphins loved Herbert after his sophomore season and really wanted him, but he took a step backwards his junior year forcing him to go back for his senior season where he got his mojo back.

BTW, isn't Colt McCoy a bad comparison? Everyone knew he wasn't a first round pick which is why he wasn't drafted until the 3rd round.


I was being a smart a$$ with poor delivery.

Yes, I get that Tua was consensus favorite pre-injury. But things changed and there were some questions about his arm strength/delivery that predated injury. Miami kept their blinders on. Better hope it was the right call.

I consistently use the Colt McCoy example because that is what Tua becomes if he is not elite. Guys with limitations eventually find their way to the bench. Having IT is wonderful but you also need to make all throws. You may have the rare example of Kirk Cousins who is a nice bridge starter lacking physical traits, but is that who you want leading your team?


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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:27 am 
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I was all in on Tua prior to the injury, but posted against his drafting after that nasty injury. I think it was foolish to think he would ever be the same player after that injury. Now, I hear he tested poorly and I think intelligence is a big factor in QB play. I did not know Herbert had done so well in academics….it now makes sense to me.

I wanted Jacob Eason that year and since he is still not a starter, we just do not know if he might be a future star or not….


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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:28 pm 
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Phinished wrote:
I was all in on Tua prior to the injury, but posted against his drafting after that nasty injury. I think it was foolish to think he would ever be the same player after that injury.


You changed your opinion on Tua because an injury prone QB became injured?

Edit: Nevermind didn’t know you were referring to college play

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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:05 pm 
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Draft is a crap shoot especially at the QB position but please put the Tua / Herbert comparisons to bed. Its not even close. I think Herbert / Mahomes can be the next Brady / Manning.


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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:09 pm 
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Big Dave wrote:

That's why Tua was drafted before Herbert, and just about everyone had Tua ranked higher than Herbert. In fact, if Tua didn't have that hip injury, most said he would have been the first QB drafted. That's pretty much the point I am making about it. The Dolphins loved Herbert after his sophomore season and really wanted him, but he took a step backwards his junior year forcing him to go back for his senior season where he got his mojo back.

BTW, isn't Colt McCoy a bad comparison? Everyone knew he wasn't a first round pick which is why he wasn't drafted until the 3rd round.
IMO If Herbert were draft by Miami, the majority of Miami fans would be drooling over Tua. The supporting cast with the Chargers is far better than the supporting case in Miami. Herbert would not be the dream of the league in Miami


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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:15 am 
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I'd hate to say this but Herbert would not be able to do here what he is doing with the Chargers. That O-Line would get him killed as well. This team ruined Ryan Tannehill and now they're going to ruin Tua as well. It makes no sense to have a speedy receiver on your team if he can't get separationg because Tua/Brissett don't have time to throw the ball.


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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:24 am 
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ArtieChokePhin wrote:
I'd hate to say this but Herbert would not be able to do here what he is doing with the Chargers. That O-Line would get him killed as well. This team ruined Ryan Tannehill and now they're going to ruin Tua as well. It makes no sense to have a speedy receiver on your team if he can't get separationg because Tua/Brissett don't have time to throw the ball.


Herbert's OL was terrible last year. But yes, I'm not sure he would have put up some of those numbers with Miami's mash unit of WRs.


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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:51 am 
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Fans can apologize for the Dolphins bypassing Herbert in what’s going to turn out to be one of draft history's worst mistakes but no one can dismiss the fact that player evaluation at the top is what separates the winning franchises from the also rans, which is what Miami is and has become under Grier. Sure, teams make mistakes and it happens every year but you can make a mistake on a tackle or a DB and it won’t wreck you but when your franchise zeroes in on finding and getting their franchise QB there’s no room for error and when they do err there is no room for excuses.

I recall Bill Polian of the Colts having to make two very difficult personnel choices, one in ’98 and one in ’99. In ’98 he had the first overall pick and he had Peyton Manning and Ryan Leaf there. In ’99 he wanted a running back and he had Edgerrin James and Ricky Williams there. In both cases, history has proven that Bill Polian is what a franchise’s architect has to be. There may not be many Polians, in fact there are more Griers than Polians, but an owners job, or his top football advisors, is to rapidly recognize a GM that can not perform and make the difficult decision to change gears before the team is set back decades by mistakes.

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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:08 am 
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carreramia wrote:
I recall Bill Polian ... a GM that can not perform and make the difficult decision to change gears before the team is set back decades by mistakes.



OK, you quoted Polian. Here is what he said prior to the draft. It sounds to me that he would roll the dice with Tua because of there was a separation in talent between Tua and Herbert.

Washington Post (April 19, 2020) wrote:
“I personally think there’s a separation between Tua and Herbert and a separation between Herbert and the rest of the pack,” Polian said. “If you think it’s close, it would be safer to go with Herbert. But in my opinion, Tua is a pretty outstanding prospect. You have to realize it’s a gamble, and the owner has to be willing to say: ‘I’m willing to gamble. I’m willing to roll the dice.’ Everything is looking up, but you can’t deny that it’s a gamble.”


Washington Post (April 19, 2020) wrote:
“Let’s be clear,” (Joe) Banner (a former Philadelphia Eagles and Cleveland Browns executive) wrote. “If Herbert gets picked over Tua in my opinion it’s only about injury. To me Tua is much better on tape. Better feel, more accurate and better movement in the pocket.”


https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2 ... st-gamble/

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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:25 am 
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That's all good Dave, but I remember the narrative being Herbert winning draft season. His interviews were shockingly good. His rapport with guys at the Senior Bowl was great and he had the best physical tools of any QB.

We as fans were told to panic - by Omar and Big O - because Herbert was a slightly better Tannehill. The brass mentally drafted Tua back in 2018 and would probably have dealt up for him if need be.

Unless Tua becomes Drew Brees faster than we expect then we'll be doing this for years to come. Same with missing on Ryan and Flacco, or Wilson instead of Tannehill.


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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:26 am 
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Big Dave wrote:
carreramia wrote:
I recall Bill Polian ... a GM that can not perform and make the difficult decision to change gears before the team is set back decades by mistakes.



OK, you quoted Polian. Here is what he said prior to the draft. It sounds to me that he would roll the dice with Tua because of there was a separation in talent between Tua and Herbert.

Washington Post (April 19, 2020) wrote:
“I personally think there’s a separation between Tua and Herbert and a separation between Herbert and the rest of the pack,” Polian said. “If you think it’s close, it would be safer to go with Herbert. But in my opinion, Tua is a pretty outstanding prospect. You have to realize it’s a gamble, and the owner has to be willing to say: ‘I’m willing to gamble. I’m willing to roll the dice.’ Everything is looking up, but you can’t deny that it’s a gamble.”


Washington Post (April 19, 2020) wrote:
“Let’s be clear,” (Joe) Banner (a former Philadelphia Eagles and Cleveland Browns executive) wrote. “If Herbert gets picked over Tua in my opinion it’s only about injury. To me Tua is much better on tape. Better feel, more accurate and better movement in the pocket.”


https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2 ... st-gamble/


all fine and dandy but that’s just the point...the same fine line that existed among the top prospects Polian had to evaluate and separate from in '98 and ’99 existed in 2021 for Grier, but in months of evaluation and discussion, not in momentary interviews when he has no horse in the race, Polian not once but twice made the right decisions. The Fins haven’t and won’t so long as Grier is the GM.

No excuses Dave.

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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:42 am 
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jammer wrote:
That's all good Dave, but I remember the narrative being Herbert winning draft season. His interviews were shockingly good. His rapport with guys at the Senior Bowl was great and he had the best physical tools of any QB.

We as fans were told to panic - by Omar and Big O - because Herbert was a slightly better Tannehill. The brass mentally drafted Tua back in 2018 and would probably have dealt up for him if need be.

Unless Tua becomes Drew Brees faster than we expect then we'll be doing this for years to come. Same with missing on Ryan and Flacco, or Wilson instead of Tannehill.


Yep, I remember all that. The last thing I wanted was another Tannehill, and there were questions about the offense that was run at Oregon which did not take advantage of Herbert. My response to carraramia was showing that Polian thought that Tua was the better talent and he would roll the dice on him. At this point, it looks like it was a bad roll of the dice because Herbert looks to be better in the NFL.

I do think Tua will be really good eventually and am hopeful that he does look it by season's end, but as usual with our QBs, I don't think we are putting him in a situation to succeed with the OL and the playcalling. And, that puts us all in a bad situation because it is difficult to analyze your QB when you have to make excuses for them all the time. What will probably happen? We will replace him with a veteran, trade him, and then watch him light it up in the NFL just as Tannehill is doing.

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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:24 am 
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I wanted Drew Lock and busted.


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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:51 am 
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Makchell wrote:
I wanted Drew Lock and busted.


I don't think Lock is done as a starter in the league. A franchise player? More than likely not. But definitely a guy who can start and win some games once things slow down.


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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:10 am 
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jammer wrote:
Makchell wrote:
I wanted Drew Lock and busted.


I don't think Lock is done as a starter in the league. A franchise player? More than likely not. But definitely a guy who can start and win some games once things slow down.


He looked good against us. Too bad he is inconsistent. An inconsistent QB = backup. You can never write anyone off though. Look at Rich Gannon and Steve Young, among many others.

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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:55 am 
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Big Dave wrote:
jammer wrote:
That's all good Dave, but I remember the narrative being Herbert winning draft season. His interviews were shockingly good. His rapport with guys at the Senior Bowl was great and he had the best physical tools of any QB.

We as fans were told to panic - by Omar and Big O - because Herbert was a slightly better Tannehill. The brass mentally drafted Tua back in 2018 and would probably have dealt up for him if need be.

Unless Tua becomes Drew Brees faster than we expect then we'll be doing this for years to come. Same with missing on Ryan and Flacco, or Wilson instead of Tannehill.


Yep, I remember all that. The last thing I wanted was another Tannehill, and there were questions about the offense that was run at Oregon which did not take advantage of Herbert. My response to carraramia was showing that Polian thought that Tua was the better talent and he would roll the dice on him. At this point, it looks like it was a bad roll of the dice because Herbert looks to be better in the NFL.

I do think Tua will be really good eventually and am hopeful that he does look it by season's end, but as usual with our QBs, I don't think we are putting him in a situation to succeed with the OL and the playcalling. And, that puts us all in a bad situation because it is difficult to analyze your QB when you have to make excuses for them all the time. What will probably happen? We will replace him with a veteran, trade him, and then watch him light it up in the NFL just as Tannehill is doing.


And then the vet that we traded for will be suspended and/or incarcerated and we will have nothing to show for the picks we traded for it except the dishonor of having chosen to make a sexual predator the face of our franchise.


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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:30 pm 
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I prefer we make a move up in the draft to acquire our QB. Just fire Grier and hire somebody with a brain. I mean, really….wtf has Grier done to deserve his position and the team’s loyalty? He is a moron….


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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:31 pm 
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Phinished wrote:
I prefer we make a move up in the draft to acquire our QB. Just fire Grier and hire somebody with a brain. I mean, really….wtf has Grier done to deserve his position and the team’s loyalty? He is a moron….


I posted before that Grier supposedly gets what his coaches ask for. It is not his fault if they cannot put the guys in positions to succeed.

I really think Flores might be the bigger problem based on everything I'm reading. Goes back to the Jeff Ireland firing. In hindsight it was Joe Philbin being the problem. Ireland has since gone on to find success in New Orleans.


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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:24 pm 
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Phinished wrote:
I prefer we make a move up in the draft to acquire our QB. Just fire Grier and hire somebody with a brain. I mean, really….wtf has Grier done to deserve his position and the team’s loyalty? He is a moron….


:saywhat


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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:44 am 
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Dphins4me wrote:
Phinished wrote:
I prefer we make a move up in the draft to acquire our QB. Just fire Grier and hire somebody with a brain. I mean, really….wtf has Grier done to deserve his position and the team’s loyalty? He is a moron….


:saywhat


So, do you think Grier is a good GM? Do you have anything to add to the discussion, or are you going to post more pics? Go back to MySpace dude….


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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:47 am 
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jammer wrote:
Phinished wrote:
I prefer we make a move up in the draft to acquire our QB. Just fire Grier and hire somebody with a brain. I mean, really….wtf has Grier done to deserve his position and the team’s loyalty? He is a moron….


I posted before that Grier supposedly gets what his coaches ask for. It is not his fault if they cannot put the guys in positions to succeed.

I really think Flores might be the bigger problem based on everything I'm reading. Goes back to the Jeff Ireland firing. In hindsight it was Joe Philbin being the problem. Ireland has since gone on to find success in New Orleans.


I agree that Flores shares plenty of blame. As the head coach, he is responsible for the clown show that is our offense and his choice of like 3 guys to call the plays is really questionable. Surely he has had input on our draft selections, as well as being part of the machine that chases away talent like Minkah Fitzpatrick. This is year 3 and if we see a losing record, then Flores should be gone. He can take his 3 OC’s with him….and I hope the vacuum sucks Grier out of the airlock too!


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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:23 am 
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Phinished wrote:
Dphins4me wrote:
Phinished wrote:
I prefer we make a move up in the draft to acquire our QB. Just fire Grier and hire somebody with a brain. I mean, really….wtf has Grier done to deserve his position and the team’s loyalty? He is a moron….


:saywhat


So, do you think Grier is a good GM? Do you have anything to add to the discussion, or are you going to post more pics? Go back to MySpace dude….


I think he's made some good moves in buying the groceries, but I would question my wife if she put the twelve-pack of Dos Equis that I bought last night in front of me for breakfast. I don't understand the thought on what they are doing with this offensive line. They had good improvement and what looked like the right pieces last year, but they tinkered with it and blew it all up. I will say that Grier screwed up the center position in free agency, but he got lucky with Deiter.

Tua? I wouldn't count him out just yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:59 pm 
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Big Dave wrote:
Phinished wrote:
Dphins4me wrote:
Phinished wrote:
I prefer we make a move up in the draft to acquire our QB. Just fire Grier and hire somebody with a brain. I mean, really….wtf has Grier done to deserve his position and the team’s loyalty? He is a moron….


:saywhat


So, do you think Grier is a good GM? Do you have anything to add to the discussion, or are you going to post more pics? Go back to MySpace dude….


I think he's made some good moves in buying the groceries, but I would question my wife if she put the twelve-pack of Dos Equis that I bought last night in front of me for breakfast. I don't understand the thought on what they are doing with this offensive line. They had good improvement and what looked like the right pieces last year, but they tinkered with it and blew it all up. I will say that Grier screwed up the center position in free agency, but he got lucky with Deiter.

Tua? I wouldn't count him out just yet.


Yes, the O line is a real crap show. Austin Jackson is worthless at this point. Put him on the practice squad. They traded away a free agent guard who is now playing well and cut one who is now playing well in Vegas. They should both still be on the team, Eich should be LT, Hunt at RT. They could have made roster room by cutting smurfs like Grant and perhaps Hurns or trade Wilson.


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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:53 pm 
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Phinished wrote:
So, do you think Grier is a good GM? Do you have anything to add to the discussion, or are you going to post more pics? Go back to MySpace dude….

I think he has his hits and misses, just like every other GMs. No GM hits HR with draft picks. Might want to educate yourself on that.

MySpace? Not even good enough to warrant a half heart return. Its simply pathetic and embarrassing. My heart bleeds for your weak arse attempt..


Last edited by Dphins4me on Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:58 pm 
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Big Dave wrote:
I think he's made some good moves in buying the groceries, but I would question my wife if she put the twelve-pack of Dos Equis that I bought last night in front of me for breakfast. I don't understand the thought on what they are doing with this offensive line. They had good improvement and what looked like the right pieces last year, but they tinkered with it and blew it all up. I will say that Grier screwed up the center position in free agency, but he got lucky with Deiter.

Tua? I wouldn't count him out just yet.

I do not disagree. Miami has been in the circle of failure fo 25 yrs. Stop repeating the same stuff that has kept you in this circle. Sometimes the hard decision is to let people fail and learn. Flores is a quality coach, if he made a mistake then let him learn from it and fix it. Firing him only starts the cycle over again.

Tua is quality IMO, but he is not superman.


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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:24 am 
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Dphins4me wrote:
I do not disagree. Miami has been in the circle of failure fo 25 yrs. Stop repeating the same stuff that has kept you in this circle. Sometimes the hard decision is to let people fail and learn. Flores is a quality coach, if he made a mistake then let him learn from it and fix it. Firing him only starts the cycle over again.

Tua is quality IMO, but he is not superman.


I don’t get the pervasive apologetic, excuse-a-thon, ultra-denial mentality of groups of fins fans that are so used to the mediocrity the Fins have perfected for decades that they are super comfortable in this go-nowhere merry go ‘round and push back against all reality. In a real life setting this group would make excellent welfare case workers, consistently giving unmotivated underachievers every chance and excuse in the book.

But this is the NFL. The very well established Not For Long professional league. Where winning isn’t everything, it’s the ONLY thing. Thus, there is no such thing as a Coaching/GM training center, where novices come and are allowed to learn on the job, screw up, receive counseling, and are put back out there on Sundays to see if they can actually earn the title of NFL head coach, NFL GM. Neither Flores nor Grier deserve the welfare-case worker approach. They don’t get the job done under by now obvious circumstances, it’s time to move on.

It isn’t a novel concept. In the NFL patience isn’t a virtue, it’s a liability.

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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:33 am 
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And it isn’t just me, and Phinished, and two or three others. Here’s excerpts from Barry Jackson in the Herald, quoting not everyday board-bred fans, but people that are in the game.

Quote:
The Dolphins’ poor start and dubious personnel moves are drawing sharp criticism from national TV analysts and veteran NFL evaluators. ESPN’s Dan Orlovsky, the former NFL quarterback who was enthusiastic about the Dolphins entering the season, is now fed up. “Someone has to tell me what the Miami Dolphins’ plan/identity is on offense,” he bemoaned.

“Who is calling the plays? There is absolutely no rhyme or reason to the things they do. It looks like they are guessing plays out of a hat and just calling anything to see if it may work?!” CBS’ Jay Feely, who called last Sunday’s game, criticized Miami’s offensive staff for not maximizing tight end Mike Gesicki and wide receiver DeVante Parker. Feely also wondered why the Dolphins don’t go to more of a hurry-up offense and blasted the Dolphins’ offensive coaches for being “not creative and not aggressive.”

He also noted that one reason the Dolphins are struggling to stop the run is that “75 to 80 percent of the time they’re in nickel or dime and they dare you to run the ball.” Former Browns general manager and longtime NFL executive Mike Lombardi told WQAM’s Joe Rose this week that “when you have co-coordinators [on offense], it doesn’t work. It’s been proven it doesn’t work. You need one guy who’s going to call plays and set up the game plan based on the personnel.”


Quote:
Asked how a general manager can survive with having multiple first-round flops, Lombardi said: “I don’t know how he does it. Chris [Grier] is a really good guy. He has had a lot of picks and hasn’t repaired the offensive line. I don’t know how you survive that. ”


Read more at: https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt- ... rylink=cpy

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Last edited by carreramia on Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:36 am 
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The story continues.....

Quote:
But, Lombardi said, if anyone evaluated Justin Herbert (40 TDs, 13 picks in with the Chargers) and Tagovailoa (12 TDs, 6 picks), “there is no chance you would watch both of these players work out and pick Tua. One is bigger, stronger, faster, with a bigger arm. It makes no sense at all. But it is the power of the media. When you begin with the end in mind [drafting Tagovailoa] and violate the first rule of scouting, which is not beginning with the end of mind,.. that’s what they did. “I don’t understand how it can happen. It’s the power of bias, the power of media, the power of the PR machine, the power of the Leigh Steinberg machine. There was a complete bias that was set up in this. Leigh Steinberg [who is one of Tagovailoa’s agents] is the greatest marketer of all time. He can spin a story and people buy it. You have people still buying it at the worldwide leader [ESPN]. I was reading something the other day that Tua is still going to be great. It’s unbelievable. You took a player who has been injury prone his whole career.


Quote:
“It’s scary times. You don’t have the quarterback, the offensive line struggles, they don’t have impact players on defense. They did it the right way to set it up [with lots of draft picks]. Problem is, when you get those picks, you have to deliver... They haven’t.”


Read more at: https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt- ... rylink=cpy

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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:01 am 
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Quote:
Meanwhile, NFL Network analyst Marc Ross — who spent 16 years in scouting and evaluation for the Eagles and Giants — told WQAM’s Rose recently: “The way things are looking right now,... this is going to be an under-.500 team. If I’m Chris Grier and I’m trying to save my job, I would want to get Deshaun Watson...

Read more at: https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt- ... rylink=cpy

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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:14 pm 
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carreramia wrote:
The story continues.....

Quote:
But, Lombardi said, if anyone evaluated Justin Herbert (40 TDs, 13 picks in with the Chargers) and Tagovailoa (12 TDs, 6 picks), “there is no chance you would watch both of these players work out and pick Tua. One is bigger, stronger, faster, with a bigger arm. It makes no sense at all. But it is the power of the media. When you begin with the end in mind [drafting Tagovailoa] and violate the first rule of scouting, which is not beginning with the end of mind,.. that’s what they did. “I don’t understand how it can happen. It’s the power of bias, the power of media, the power of the PR machine, the power of the Leigh Steinberg machine. There was a complete bias that was set up in this. Leigh Steinberg [who is one of Tagovailoa’s agents] is the greatest marketer of all time. He can spin a story and people buy it. You have people still buying it at the worldwide leader [ESPN]. I was reading something the other day that Tua is still going to be great. It’s unbelievable. You took a player who has been injury prone his whole career.


Quote:
“It’s scary times. You don’t have the quarterback, the offensive line struggles, they don’t have impact players on defense. They did it the right way to set it up [with lots of draft picks]. Problem is, when you get those picks, you have to deliver... They haven’t.”


Read more at: https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt- ... rylink=cpy


When I saw that article this morning, I knew that you'd post it ... and it should be. The Dolphins studied both of these players deligently. They were infatuated with Herbert until his junior year funk as he had all the tools to be a good QB in the NFL. BUT, they still would have drafted him if he'd come out after his junior year and were disappointed that he went back for his senior year. They didn't draft Tua because of what the media portrayed him but by their own analysis. Lombardi is talking out of "not knowing the details" as to Miami's decision. No one outside the big guys knows their details into the decision on that. He is also talking from hindsight vision and has the benefit of a year of observation in the pros. MOST people who saw them both had Tua rated over Herbert. Some of the most physically gifted QBs do not always translate to the NFL. I think you know that. Most said that Tua was a left-handed Drew Brees ... who has a lot of NFL records. I think it's easy to get frustrated and forget some of the details.

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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:48 pm 
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carreramia wrote:
The story continues.....

Quote:
But, Lombardi said, if anyone evaluated Justin Herbert (40 TDs, 13 picks in with the Chargers) and Tagovailoa (12 TDs, 6 picks), “there is no chance you would watch both of these players work out and pick Tua. One is bigger, stronger, faster, with a bigger arm. It makes no sense at all. But it is the power of the media. When you begin with the end in mind [drafting Tagovailoa] and violate the first rule of scouting, which is not beginning with the end of mind,.. that’s what they did. “I don’t understand how it can happen. It’s the power of bias, the power of media, the power of the PR machine, the power of the Leigh Steinberg machine. There was a complete bias that was set up in this. Leigh Steinberg [who is one of Tagovailoa’s agents] is the greatest marketer of all time. He can spin a story and people buy it. You have people still buying it at the worldwide leader [ESPN]. I was reading something the other day that Tua is still going to be great. It’s unbelievable. You took a player who has been injury prone his whole career.


Quote:
“It’s scary times. You don’t have the quarterback, the offensive line struggles, they don’t have impact players on defense. They did it the right way to set it up [with lots of draft picks]. Problem is, when you get those picks, you have to deliver... They haven’t.”


Read more at: https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt- ... rylink=cpy



If this team has a 5-11 year like they did in 2019, you can bet your a$$ that Grier and Flores are out the door.


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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:04 pm 
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carreramia wrote:
Quote:
Meanwhile, NFL Network analyst Marc Ross — who spent 16 years in scouting and evaluation for the Eagles and Giants — told WQAM’s Rose recently: “The way things are looking right now,... this is going to be an under-.500 team. If I’m Chris Grier and I’m trying to save my job, I would want to get Deshaun Watson...


Many are saying they need to trade for Watson. Sure, just answer this question. How does trading for Watson help, if Watson ends up suspended or in jail? There are three outcomes to this. Two have Watson not playing on Sunday's

Also, would someone please tell me besides pretty stats, what has Watson won? I do recall him blowing a 24 point lead in the playoffs once.

Many call Tua injury prone, who its Watson that has had two ACL repairs, fractured finger, fractured clavicle.


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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:16 pm 
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carreramia wrote:

I don’t get the pervasive apologetic, excuse-a-thon, ultra-denial mentality of groups of fins fans that are so used to the mediocrity the Fins have perfected for decades that they are super comfortable in this go-nowhere merry go ‘round and push back against all reality. In a real life setting this group would make excellent welfare case workers, consistently giving unmotivated underachievers every chance and excuse in the book.

But this is the NFL. The very well established Not For Long professional league. Where winning isn’t everything, it’s the ONLY thing. Thus, there is no such thing as a Coaching/GM training center, where novices come and are allowed to learn on the job, screw up, receive counseling, and are put back out there on Sundays to see if they can actually earn the title of NFL head coach, NFL GM. Neither Flores nor Grier deserve the welfare-case worker approach. They don’t get the job done under by now obvious circumstances, it’s time to move on.

It isn’t a novel concept. In the NFL patience isn’t a virtue, it’s a liability.

Correct, you do not get it. You seem to be the type of guy that opens a gas station in the same failed location of the previous 10 gas stations. Miami has been doing exactly what you want them to do again. People who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. Repeating the same failed cycle over and over again, will bring the same failed results. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I look at organizations that win. They are not changing their coaches / GM every 2-3 yrs. There is a reason the Steelers have six rings.


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 Post subject: Re: Unhinged
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:18 pm 
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Dphins4me wrote:
carreramia wrote:

I don’t get the pervasive apologetic, excuse-a-thon, ultra-denial mentality of groups of fins fans that are so used to the mediocrity the Fins have perfected for decades that they are super comfortable in this go-nowhere merry go ‘round and push back against all reality. In a real life setting this group would make excellent welfare case workers, consistently giving unmotivated underachievers every chance and excuse in the book.

But this is the NFL. The very well established Not For Long professional league. Where winning isn’t everything, it’s the ONLY thing. Thus, there is no such thing as a Coaching/GM training center, where novices come and are allowed to learn on the job, screw up, receive counseling, and are put back out there on Sundays to see if they can actually earn the title of NFL head coach, NFL GM. Neither Flores nor Grier deserve the welfare-case worker approach. They don’t get the job done under by now obvious circumstances, it’s time to move on.

It isn’t a novel concept. In the NFL patience isn’t a virtue, it’s a liability.

Correct, you do not get it. You seem to be the type of guy that opens a gas station in the same failed location of the previous 10 gas stations. Miami has been doing exactly what you want them to do again. People who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. Repeating the same failed cycle over and over again, will bring the same failed results. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I look at organizations that win. They are not changing their coaches / GM every 2-3 yrs. There is a reason the Steelers have six rings.


Really? Organizations that win? How do you see that applying in the Dolphins case I wonder. All I see from you is a litany of delusional hopes. And by the way, the reason the Steelers in your example don’t have to make changes is because THEY make their decisions work, they have a good HC and proven people in the front office that produce good drafts and don’t let diva players ramrod them into bad decisions, so of course they are going to have continuity. Here? Continuity is a concept that according to you should apply on the Dolphins simply by keeping the same hired hands, the only problem with that is that this “continuity” you seek is keeping bad hires and their multitude of personnel mistakes.

You are trying to change the paradigm of professional sports that practices changes of the people that are making the decisions that lead to failure. It’s only a well worn practice that has lived going on two centuries last time I looked. Good luck!

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