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 Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF? 

Should Zach Thomas be inducted into the HoF?
Yes 96%  96%  [ 22 ]
No 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 23

 Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF? 
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
I think some one said earlier that Thomas was the 2nd best MLB of his generation (with Ray Lewis taking the #1 spot)....

If you take away Lewis' 2000 SB run, and the one from 2 years ago...... are their stats really that different?


Thomas


G TACK SOLO FF INT SACK
184 1720 1090 17 17 20.5

per game
9.3 5.9 .1 .1 .1


Lewis

G TACK SOLO FF INT SACK
228 2050 1558 19 31 41.5

per game

8.9 6.8 .08 .13 .18

Sooo... roughly the same average of tackles per game, with Lewis notch 1 more solo tackle per game more.... forced fumbles, and interceptions are just about even..... and Lewis has double the sacks, yet 1 every 5 games is not really noticeably more than 1 every 10 games.

Statistically speaking, Lewis is #1 and Thomas is #2..... I get it. Lewis will be a first ballot HOFer.... and there is talk that Thomas WILL NOT MAKE THE HOF???

Yes! Thomas is a HOFer! Absolutely. Probably not first ballot, but he will get in... absolutely. Eventually, he will get it. On top of the fact that Thomas is a 100% class act, a good human being, and a true football player..... Lewis is a murder last time i checked (check your opinions at the door, even if he was acquitted, he's still not a great human being for even being involved in that!!!)

If it's a matter of Rings... well Lewis has 2, and Thomas has 0. So I guess the only argument that can be made AGAINST Thomas going into the HOF is the fact that he never won it all.... But Sanders is a HOFer, and so is Marino... I dont think you can deny him enshrinement....

You can definitely omit Thomas from the best MLBer of all time argument, but he has to rank in the top 25...... there are only 25 LBers enshrined, so Thomas HAS to be in the top 25 for MLB specifically, maybe even top 15


Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:00 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
SkyHigh314 wrote:
I think some one said earlier that Thomas was the 2nd best MLB of his generation (with Ray Lewis taking the #1 spot)....
Argumentative. Urlacher is in the discussion I would think.

SkyHigh314 wrote:
If you take away Lewis' 2000 SB run, and the one from 2 years ago...... are their stats really that different?
Take away? How can one do that in comparing two players?

SkyHigh314 wrote:
Sooo... roughly the same average of tackles per game, with Lewis notch 1 more solo tackle per game more.... forced fumbles, and interceptions are just about even..... and Lewis has double the sacks, yet 1 every 5 games is not really noticeably more than 1 every 10 games.
Tackles are a nice stat. The question on tackles is were they at the LoS or 6 yds down field. Slight difference in the type of tackle they were. Would you not agree?

SkyHigh314 wrote:
Statistically speaking, Lewis is #1 and Thomas is #2..... I get it. Lewis will be a first ballot HOFer.... and there is talk that Thomas WILL NOT MAKE THE HOF???
Yes, because Balt. had one of the most dominating D's under Lewis's watch. Players changed, but the domination did not. Miami. Not so much and no one will convince me the talent was much different.

SkyHigh314 wrote:
Yes! Thomas is a HOFer! Absolutely. Probably not first ballot, but he will get in... absolutely. Eventually, he will get it.
I agree, he will get in. The NFL requires at least 4 players every yr. Meaning you will get players not HoF worthy making it to the HoF.


SkyHigh314 wrote:
On top of the fact that Thomas is a 100% class act, a good human being, and a true football player.....
If being a class act were a requirement for the HoF, then he would be lock.

SkyHigh314 wrote:
Lewis is a murder last time i checked (check your opinions at the door, even if he was acquitted, he's still not a great human being for even being involved in that!!!)
Acquitted? Never tried. Charges were dropped. He was charged with obstruction and frankly IMO they only charged him to get him to talk.

SkyHigh314 wrote:
If it's a matter of Rings... well Lewis has 2, and Thomas has 0. So I guess the only argument that can be made AGAINST Thomas going into the HOF is the fact that he never won it all.... But Sanders is a HOFer, and so is Marino... I dont think you can deny him enshrinement.....
Rings do not matter IMO.

SkyHigh314 wrote:
You can definitely omit Thomas from the best MLBer of all time argument, but he has to rank in the top 25...... there are only 25 LBers enshrined, so Thomas HAS to be in the top 25 for MLB specifically, maybe even top 15
I cannot speak to that since there are a lot of MLB I never watched play.


Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:48 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
I like that.. dissected every sentence... Touche! LOL

No your right. Urlacher should be in that discussion too... Still think Thomas was better than Urlacher though. Urlacher was more physically gifted I will admit, but i really do think Thomas was a better player.... I'll try and scrap together the same stat line tomorrow and see how it adds up.

Can you not attribute Baltimore's Defensive dominance to the scheme ran? The players may have rotated in and out and Lewis stayed the same, But I am pretty sure there were only 2 defensive coordinators in the entire 2000's era for Baltimore.... and the second one (Rex Ryan) was an in house promotion, so you can argue that yes the players rotated in and out, but the scheme was exactly the same, year after year.... and the DC's in baltimore were the best in the business.... still today as well..

I did not mean to say take away the 2 super bowl runs as in statistically speaking... I meant to say, take away the 2 rings, and compare the two players on statistics, not on winner/loser..... I think you can compare Montana vs Marino vs Kelly vs Elway based on play and not include championships, and have more than enough raw data to make an opinion about that group collectively. I would hope you can make the same argument for Thomas vs Lewis vs Urlacher without factoring championships since all of them have at least 10 years of statistics to compare. So no, I am not saying take the rings away.... but look at the player for what he is WITHOUT the team accomplishment, and you dont have a heavily dominant argument.

class act will play a factor.... remember, the HOF ballots are voted in, not selected by a computer like the BCS did in college football... His personality, "class act", humanitarian aspects.... walter payton awards, etc DO weigh into the voter's sentimental emotions...
For this reason alone, this may be the reason Brett Favre does NOT get in on his first ballot... out of spite for his nonsensical will he wont he retire BS.... dont think the voters dont remember those antics...
The status of how they conduct themselves as a human being will definitely play into the whole voting process.... Aaron Hernandez would not make the HOF (if he was even a viable candidate) because of his murder fest.... regardless of talent.
Me first prima donna WR's will have a hard time getting in based on the bad taste they leave in voters mouths.... It would be exactly why a guy like Brandon Marshall will not make the hall of fame RIGHT NOW... because of all the off field shenanigans...
I have noticed, the A LOT of the HOFer's are class act individuals.... and alot of the Hall of Famers had a LOOOOONG tenure with ONE specific team. Credentials that definitely weigh strongly in Thomas' favor.

And yea... you got the data right on that Lewis murder non murder instance... but still... Im not the only one walking around still calling him a murderer.... perception is everything, facts are misleading, and ignorance is bliss..... OJ was acquitted.... but we all know he did it! perception is everything... Maybe Lewis has nothing to do with what happened, but the rumors are still floating around...


Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:14 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
SkyHigh314 wrote:
I like that.. dissected every sentence... Touche! LOL
Its how I do it.

SkyHigh314 wrote:
No your right. Urlacher should be in that discussion too... Still think Thomas was better than Urlacher though. Urlacher was more physically gifted I will admit, but i really do think Thomas was a better player.... I'll try and scrap together the same stat line tomorrow and see how it adds up.
I have not watch Urlacher much, but I do know what I have read.

SkyHigh314 wrote:
Can you not attribute Baltimore's Defensive dominance to the scheme ran? The players may have rotated in and out and Lewis stayed the same, But I am pretty sure there were only 2 defensive coordinators in the entire 2000's era for Baltimore.... and the second one (Rex Ryan) was an in house promotion, so you can argue that yes the players rotated in and out, but the scheme was exactly the same, year after year.... and the DC's in baltimore were the best in the business.... still today as well..
Scheme does play a role, but the horses still have to be there.

SkyHigh314 wrote:
I did not mean to say take away the 2 super bowl runs as in statistically speaking... I meant to say, take away the 2 rings, and compare the two players on statistics, not on winner/loser..... I think you can compare Montana vs Marino vs Kelly vs Elway based on play and not include championships, and have more than enough raw data to make an opinion about that group collectively. I would hope you can make the same argument for Thomas vs Lewis vs Urlacher without factoring championships since all of them have at least 10 years of statistics to compare. So no, I am not saying take the rings away.... but look at the player for what he is WITHOUT the team accomplishment, and you dont have a heavily dominant argument.
IMO HoF is about on the field. Not Championship. If Bob Kuechenberg is not HoF worthy, then I find it hard to believe ZT. Kuechenberg IMO is the greatest OLman in Miami history. No disrespect to any other Phins lineman.

SkyHigh314 wrote:
class act will play a factor.... remember, the HOF ballots are voted in, not selected by a computer like the BCS did in college football... His personality, "class act", humanitarian aspects.... walter payton awards, etc DO weigh into the voter's sentimental emotions...
For this reason alone, this may be the reason Brett Favre does NOT get in on his first ballot... out of spite for his nonsensical will he wont he retire BS.... dont think the voters dont remember those antics...
The status of how they conduct themselves as a human being will definitely play into the whole voting process.... Aaron Hernandez would not make the HOF (if he was even a viable candidate) because of his murder fest.... regardless of talent.
Me first prima donna WR's will have a hard time getting in based on the bad taste they leave in voters mouths.... It would be exactly why a guy like Brandon Marshall will not make the hall of fame RIGHT NOW... because of all the off field shenanigans...
I have noticed, the A LOT of the HOFer's are class act individuals.... and alot of the Hall of Famers had a LOOOOONG tenure with ONE specific team. Credentials that definitely weigh strongly in Thomas' favor..
Lawrence Taylor is in the HoF. I disagree on Hernandez. If he were Tony Gonzalez then he would be in the HoF. HoF is about on the field play.

SkyHigh314 wrote:
And yea... you got the data right on that Lewis murder non murder instance... but still... Im not the only one walking around still calling him a murderer.... perception is everything, facts are misleading, and ignorance is bliss..... OJ was acquitted.... but we all know he did it! perception is everything... Maybe Lewis has nothing to do with what happened, but the rumors are still floating around...
I have no idea as to what happened that night & do not pretend to. I do know the police wanted him to talk, he refused and then they charged him. Once he agreed, then the charges were dropped.


Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:29 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
I find it quite shocking that there is a Dolphin fan that actually questions Zach's ability against the run,
Quote:
Tackles are a nice stat. The question on tackles is were they at the LoS or 6 yds down field. Slight difference in the type of tackle they were. Would you not agree?
Zach was very good at every aspect of MLB but he really shined against the run, he was truly a force to be reckoned with, there's no need to go beyond this set of stats;

In 2006 we were 8th against the run, and tied for 2nd in rushing TDs allowed.

In 2007 we lost Zach to injury, subsequently we finished 32nd, dead last against the run and 30th in rushing TDs allowed, pathetic.

2008 Zach returns, clearly he is starting to show signs of breaking down due to age, however, we end up 10th against the run and tied for 8th in TDs allowed.

Is there any more glaring proof then that about his dominant ability against the run.

Just to kinda hammer the point home, in Zach's 13 years here we finished top 10 against the run 7 times and top 10 in rushing TDs allowed 10 times, the 3 years we didn't finish top ten in this cat, Zach missed at least 2 games to injury...

In the prior 13 years we finished top 10 only 2 times, and 4 times in rushing TDs allowed.

Zach was so good against the run that teams game planned for him, to no avail...

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Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:37 am
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
Finster wrote:
In 2006 we were 8th against the run, and tied for 2nd in rushing TDs allowed.

In 2007 we lost Zach to injury, subsequently we finished 32nd, dead last against the run and 30th in rushing TDs allowed, pathetic.

2008 Zach returns, clearly he is starting to show signs of breaking down due to age, however, we end up 10th against the run and tied for 8th in TDs allowed.

Is there any more glaring proof then that about his dominant ability against the run.

Just to kinda hammer the point home, in Zach's 13 years here we finished top 10 against the run 7 times and top 10 in rushing TDs allowed 10 times, the 3 years we didn't finish top ten in this cat, Zach missed at least 2 games to injury...

In the prior 13 years we finished top 10 only 2 times, and 4 times in rushing TDs allowed.

Zach was so good against the run that teams game planned for him, to no avail...

Hammered it home.

One thing that is kinda important to your 2006-2008 example. In 2008 Zach Thomas played for the Dallas Cowboys, not the Phins and he played 12 yrs in Miami.

If Kooch does not belong in the HOF then ZT does not belong.

I'm not saying ZT was not good. He just was not HOF good. HOF should be for special players. Zach was not special. He started out special for about 4 yrs, then became good.


Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:43 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
Quote:
Tackles are a nice stat. The question on tackles is were they at the LoS or 6 yds down field. Slight difference in the type of tackle they were. Would you not agree?


couldn't agree more. ZT when compared to any LB holds his own. Nobody played with better instincts. No LB ever had better pursuit angles, instincts. He was undersized but missed very little time to injury. Pound for Pound, he might be the best ever. If he had Ray Lewis's size and athleticism, he would've been the best ever by far. Dude was freakish for his size. If you look up at the voting and its 22-1...that would be the first clue you're wrong. Semantics aside, you have no argument. Stats, defensive rankings etc are all in his favor. Was he as good as RL in his prime... close but not quite....but no one else was either. LT was OLB used more as a DE. Here's the entire list of things considered.
Injuries
missed games
tackles
ints
sacks
tackles for losses
forced fumbles
ZT was the complete package and when you examine it that way, only a fool would say he isn't HOF material. Sorry, just facts. Brooks, Lewis, Singletary, Lambert, Huff, Nitschke, Butkus, Seau (You mention Urlacher but what has he ever done?..he was dominant early and then faded like my golf shot), Lanier, Bruschi, Willis.... Again, ZT would hold his own in that club by any stat, or measure other than heighth.


Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:46 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?

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Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:46 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
Oh and as far as hits making a difference...yeah. They do and Thomas had more than his share of those.
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Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:52 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
it's only 22 to 1 :haha


Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:28 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
NFLJunkie wrote:

couldn't agree more. ZT when compared to any LB holds his own. Nobody played with better instincts. No LB ever had better pursuit angles, instincts. He was undersized but missed very little time to injury. Pound for Pound, he might be the best ever. If he had Ray Lewis's size and athleticism, he would've been the best ever by far. Dude was freakish for his size.
Why is it because I do not praise ZT as much as everyone else make everyone think I'm saying he sucked? Zach was good. Just not a player that when the game was on the line & a play had to be made that would win the game he struggled to do it. Just see the Culpepper run in '02. ZT was there & made the hit, but could not make the play.

NFLJunkie wrote:
If you look up at the voting and its 22-1...that would be the first clue you're wrong.
Wonder what the vote would have been when Columbus said the world was round, not flat. Would he had a second round vote? Do you think the world is flat since the majority said it was? Being in the majority does not make one right. Do I need to bring up how many time the majority has been wrong on things in the world.

Besides its a Miami Dolphins MB. Since when have fans of any team had the ability to be objective? Especially a team who has been mediocre for the last 20 yrs. Desperate for anything good that it gets over hyped.

NFLJunkie wrote:
Semantics aside, you have no argument.
In your opinion. My whole stance is at the end of the game and Miami needed one of those plays to walk off the field. They did not happen.

Besides, I said he would make the HoF in a weak yr. I mean Elvin Betha made the HoF. It took him 20 yrs to make it, but he finally did.

Look at the HoF Class of 2003. All but Allen had been retired for 10 or more yrs.
Marcus Allen
Elvin Bethea
James Lofton
Joe DeLamielleure

If it takes 5+ yrs to get in then most likely you are not deserving. Again if Kooch who IMO was the best Olman or second best in Miami history is not deserving I have a hard time believing ZT is worthy.

The HoF should be for the best, but in the NFL its for the good to really good.

NFLJunkie wrote:
Stats, defensive rankings etc are all in his favor. Was he as good as RL in his prime... close but not quite....but no one else was either. LT was OLB used more as a DE. Here's the entire list of things considered.
Shouldn't the HoF be for the best? When one has to start bringing out the stats to support their point on HoF then the argument is weak.

NFLJunkie wrote:
ZT was the complete package and when you examine it that way, only a fool would say he isn't HOF material. Sorry, just facts. Brooks, Lewis, Singletary, Lambert, Huff, Nitschke, Butkus, Seau (You mention Urlacher but what has he ever done?..he was dominant early and then faded like my golf shot),
I would say Urlacher & ZT are probably close. If Urlacher & Zach could switch places. Miami fans would be saying how he deserves to go & what has ZT done. That is why I say he does not belong. No one can deny Lewis belongs. Why? Because they know it. You think ZT belongs for one reason. He is a Phin. That is it.


Last edited by Dphins4me on Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:05 am, edited 5 times in total.



Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:33 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
NFLJunkie wrote:
Oh and as far as hits making a difference...yeah. They do and Thomas had more than his share of those.

Not real sure what you are addressing here. I've said nothing about Zach not being able to hit.


Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:36 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
Dphins4me wrote:
Finster wrote:
In 2006 we were 8th against the run, and tied for 2nd in rushing TDs allowed.

In 2007 we lost Zach to injury, subsequently we finished 32nd, dead last against the run and 30th in rushing TDs allowed, pathetic.

2008 Zach returns, clearly he is starting to show signs of breaking down due to age, however, we end up 10th against the run and tied for 8th in TDs allowed.

Is there any more glaring proof then that about his dominant ability against the run.

Just to kinda hammer the point home, in Zach's 13 years here we finished top 10 against the run 7 times and top 10 in rushing TDs allowed 10 times, the 3 years we didn't finish top ten in this cat, Zach missed at least 2 games to injury...

In the prior 13 years we finished top 10 only 2 times, and 4 times in rushing TDs allowed.

Zach was so good against the run that teams game planned for him, to no avail...

Hammered it home.

One thing that is kinda important to your 2006-2008 example. In 2008 Zach Thomas played for the Dallas Cowboys, not the Phins and he played 12 yrs in Miami.

If Kooch does not belong in the HOF then ZT does not belong.

I'm not saying ZT was not good. He just was not HOF good. HOF should be for special players. Zach was not special. He started out special for about 4 yrs, then became good.


:hithead: I went in to get the run D stats and thought I found an even more impressive stat, :embarrassed: but how we fell off when he got injured is pretty telling in itself.

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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
Finster wrote:
I went in to get the run D stats and thought I found an even more impressive stat, but how we fell off when he got injured is pretty telling in itself.


ZT played 5 games that yr. The five games Miami gave up rushing

1st - 191 yds ( Wash ) - 2nd Most of their season
2nd - 166 yds ( Dall ) - 3rd Most of their season
5th - 74 yds ( Hou )
6th - 140 yds ( Clev )
7th - 84 Yds ( NE threw the ball for 359 yds that day - did not have to run )

Even with ZT they were not very impressive.

Lets also remember this was the Cam Cameron coaching yr. Where most of us believe he was in over his head.


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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
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No one can deny Lewis belongs. Why? Because they know it.
Know what? That he was the most talented MLB ever...possibly, but how do you reconcile the fact that Thomas had comparable statistics? Either Ray Lewis didn't live up to his hype, or Thomas played to a HOF level.


Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:50 am
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
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Shouldn't the HoF be for the best? When one has to start bringing out the stats to support their point on HoF then the argument is weak.
Sure but if you're saying that Ray Lewis is the new benchmark, who else would get in? Thomas belongs in that 2nd tier of HOF LBs and there is no case you can make to prove otherwise unless you clearly ignore the facts.


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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
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In your opinion. My whole stance is at the end of the game and Miami needed one of those plays to walk off the field. They did not happen.
Thomas ended quite a few games in his career but you can't fault him for the offensive side of the football either. The Ravens won one superbowl with an anemic offense but they had a decent running game with Jamal Lewis and Preist holmes almost combining for 2000yds and 4.4yds per carry. That is incomparable to any Dolphins Team with ZT on the defense. It is unfortunate that ZT and Taylor's careers were marred by a litany of futile offenses but that shouldn't keep him out of the HOF.


Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:01 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
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Wonder what the vote would have been when Columbus said the world was round, not flat. Would he had a second round vote? Do you think the world is flat since the majority said it was? Being in the majority does not make one right. Do I need to bring up how many time the majority has been wrong on things in the world.

Besides its a Miami Dolphins MB. Since when have fans of any team had the ability to be objective? Especially a team who has been mediocre for the last 20 yrs. Desperate for anything good that it gets over hyped.


Yes but I'm not going out and asking Zulu Tribesmen about ZT. I'm asking people who have studied and been fans of the team for a long time. Objectivity, you have a point there but now you're saying everyone on this site is hopelessly out of touch...except you.


Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:03 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
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Why is it because I do not praise ZT as much as everyone else make everyone think I'm saying he sucked? Zach was good. Just not a player that when the game was on the line & a play had to be made that would win the game he struggled to do it. Just see the Culpepper run in '02. ZT was there & made the hit, but could not make the play.


You mean like the walk off INT or the walk off sack, both done by ZT in other games. Are you trying to say Ray Lewis never missed a play? Dude he got pancaked on more than one occasion with the game on the line.


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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
NFLJunkie wrote:
Know what? That he was the most talented MLB ever...possibly, but how do you reconcile the fact that Thomas had comparable statistics? Either Ray Lewis didn't live up to his hype, or Thomas played to a HOF level.

Lewis was the caption of one of the most dominate D's ever & one that was for many yrs. He was the constant in that. ZT was the caption of a very good D that could not get off the field when the game was in their hands.

Simple stat checking does not tell the story. Also as I have mentioned with tackles. A tackle for a loss and a tackle 15 yds downfield is still only one tackle, but a huge difference in yds. ZT made tackles, but where Lewis rose to the occasion in big games, is where ZT failed.

IMO A 14 tackle game in Sept is not as impressive as a 14 tackle game in Dec when your are playing for the playoffs. IMO to be a HoF you need to play your best at the end of the season, not at the beginning.


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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
NFLJunkie wrote:
Sure but if you're saying that Ray Lewis is the new benchmark, who else would get in? Thomas belongs in that 2nd tier of HOF LBs and there is no case you can make to prove otherwise unless you clearly ignore the facts.

Not saying RL is the benchmark & once again you fail to acknowledge that I have posted more than once that ZT will get into the HoF.

2nd tier players should not be in the HoF and that is why the NFL HoF is not about greatness, but just a warm body to stand up in front of the public to inducted.


Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:16 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
NFLJunkie wrote:
Yes but I'm not going out and asking Zulu Tribesmen about ZT.
Why would you?

NFLJunkie wrote:
I'm asking people who have studied and been fans of the team for a long time. Objectivity, you have a point there but now you're saying everyone on this site is hopelessly out of touch...except you.

Asking Miami fans about a player is like asking X-boyfriends who have been dumped by a girl for a objective opinion on her.

The fact the vote is 22-1 kinda lets that board is swayed. I know I am one of the few Miami fans that felt ZT was overrated.

I 100% agree that ZT will make the HoF, deserving IMO or not.


Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:24 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
NFLJunkie wrote:
Thomas ended quite a few games in his career but you can't fault him for the offensive side of the football either. The Ravens won one superbowl with an anemic offense but they had a decent running game with Jamal Lewis and Preist holmes almost combining for 2000yds and 4.4yds per carry. That is incomparable to any Dolphins Team with ZT on the defense. It is unfortunate that ZT and Taylor's careers were marred by a litany of futile offenses but that shouldn't keep him out of the HOF.
Has nothing to do with the O, but watching the D step onto the field late in the 4th with a lead, needing a stop to win the game and failing too often.

Whether it was coaching or not I cannot speak to. I just know Miami struggled in that area. Once again playoffs on the line against a really bad team with nothing to gain by winning and ZT could not make the play that would get Miami into the '02 playoffs. That one play stands out to me more than anything. IMO HoF players make that play.


Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:30 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
NFLJunkie wrote:

You mean like the walk off INT or the walk off sack, both done by ZT in other games. Are you trying to say Ray Lewis never missed a play? Dude he got pancaked on more than one occasion with the game on the line.

Sure ZT made plays that won a game here & there over his career. It would be a crime had he not. However, the more important the game the worse he played IMO. Can give me a game of importance that ZT stepped up in. I do not recall any, but I do not expect to recall every game either.


Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:42 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
Quote:
Sure ZT made plays that won a game here & there over his career. It would be a crime had he not. However, the more important the game the worse he played IMO. Can give me a game of importance that ZT stepped up in. I do not recall any, but I do not expect to recall every game either.
How many "important games" were there? I guess that needs to be the relative measure of all HOF folks from now on, how many important games did you step up in. Unfortunately, as a team, Miami only made the playoffs a few times in ZT's career. However, I remember many 3rd and short stops to give the offense one more shot at scoring. I remember a few key sacks, INTs and fumbles. I remember countless sideline to sideline plays where a first down wasn't given up. ZT anchored the middle of the defense and did a HOF job there. 22 tackles against Baltimore in the playoffs in a losing effort. Not sure Lewis ever had 22 tackles in a post season game.


Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:21 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
Quote:
Has nothing to do with the O, but watching the D step onto the field late in the 4th with a lead, needing a stop to win the game and failing too often.
Miami hardly ever played with a lead during his career. The couple of times they had a decent rushing attack, the defense was awesome.


Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:22 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
Dphins4me wrote:
NFLJunkie wrote:
Yes but I'm not going out and asking Zulu Tribesmen about ZT.
Why would you?

NFLJunkie wrote:
I'm asking people who have studied and been fans of the team for a long time. Objectivity, you have a point there but now you're saying everyone on this site is hopelessly out of touch...except you.

Asking Miami fans about a player is like asking X-boyfriends who have been dumped by a girl for a objective opinion on her.

The fact the vote is 22-1 kinda lets that board is swayed. I know I am one of the few Miami fans that felt ZT was overrated.

I 100% agree that ZT will make the HoF, deserving IMO or not.


Because you mentioned polling people about whether the world was flat or round. A little known fact is the majority of the worlds scientific community already knew the world was round. It was the common man who thought it was flat. Your effort to compare the poll of 22-1 with that was a straw man. I obliterated it. carry on


Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:24 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
Also, so its a given you think folks on here are a bunch of mindless idiots. You're entitled to your opinion. 22-1.... I'll go with the 22. :haha


Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:25 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
Dphins4me wrote:
NFLJunkie wrote:
Sure but if you're saying that Ray Lewis is the new benchmark, who else would get in? Thomas belongs in that 2nd tier of HOF LBs and there is no case you can make to prove otherwise unless you clearly ignore the facts.

Not saying RL is the benchmark & once again you fail to acknowledge that I have posted more than once that ZT will get into the HoF.

2nd tier players should not be in the HoF and that is why the NFL HoF is not about greatness, but just a warm body to stand up in front of the public to inducted.


The HOF is about the best. Its not just reserved for the 22 best ever. If so, it would be a very short tour.


Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:28 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
NFLJunkie wrote:
Miami hardly ever played with a lead during his career. The couple of times they had a decent rushing attack, the defense was awesome.
The D was 1-4 in those situation in '02.

Did not stop Denver, NY Jets, Minn or NE. The game they walked off the field with a stop was Oak. when Surtain made a great leaping one handed interception of Gannon.


Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:30 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
NFLJunkie wrote:
Also, so its a given you think folks on here are a bunch of mindless idiots. You're entitled to your opinion. 22-1.... I'll go with the 22.
Your words, not mine.

Can you provide people outside this board agreeing with the 22?

This was from 2010, but rarely do initial reactions change with time.
Quote:
Today's question: I reach out to members of the Pro Football Hall of Fame's board of selectors to ask "Is Zach Thomas, who retired Thursday as a Miami Dolphin, worthy of enshrinement?"

Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette: "Unless a guy's obvious, like Troy Aikman or Dan Marino or somebody like that, there's a reason you have a five-year period from the time a player retires until he's eligible. It gives us guys a chance to think about whether we want to vote for them or not. But my initial reaction? Zach Thomas just doesn't jump out at me as a Hall of Famer. Now, I'm not saying I won't vote for him. I have five years to think about it. But off the top of my head, he doesn't strike me as a Hall of Famer. But he's a candidate, and I'll look more into his career and talk to other people before I decide."

Dave Goldberg, AOL Fanhouse and formerly of The Associated Press: "I always have an open mind on these things, but right now I don't think so. My first thought is he is one of those guys in the Hall of Very Good. He was a very good player for a long time, but did he stand out? No. There are so many of these guys, and he's one step away, one level below the Hall of Fame. I remember his first day in training camp with the Dolphins. I was there. Jimmy Johnson loved Zach Thomas from the first day. He was too small and a fifth-round pick, but he was smart and a leader and was quick. But as a Hall of Famer? Not quite. He didn't quite have the impact. I don't remember him dominating games, and that's what I think of when I think of Hall of Famers."

John McClain, Houston Chronicle: "I've watched him since he was at Texas Tech. When I think of Dick Butkus or Ray Nitschke and Jack Lambert as the greatest inside linebackers in history, then, no, Zach doesn't belong. But I'm willing to listen to any evidence from anybody that can convince me that Zach has Hall of Fame credentials. Right off the bat, my initial thought for Zach going into the Hall of Fame is 'No,' when compared to the other guys, but I've said that before and changed my mind during the five years before he's eligible. I'm open-minded."


Quote:
Rotoworld
We suspect the ten-time leading tackler for Miami will fall just short of the Hall of Fame.


Quote:
NFL.com
Zach Thomas is eligible for the first time, but I doubt his candidacy will get much movement, despite a brilliant career that included 10 seasons of 100-plus tackles.


Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:55 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
NFLJunkie wrote:

The HOF is about the best. Its not just reserved for the 22 best ever. If so, it would be a very short tour.

HoF should be about special players or players that did something special. Making tackles just does not cut it. However, with the NFL requiring at least 4 players per, then it opens the door for good, but not special players. No way is there always 4 special players each yr.


Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:58 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
Butkus never played in a conference or league championship game during his career. - See more at: http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/membe ... LrEVD7.dpu

The wussy only played 8 seasons...what's he doing in the HOF?


Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:07 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
NFL Defensive Rookie of the Month (October 1996)
All-Rookie selection by College & Pro Football Newsweekly, The Football News, Pro Football Weekly and Pro Football Writers of America (1996)
AFC Defensive Rookie of the Year (1996)
Dolphins' 1996 Unsung Hero Award as selected by NFLPA
Dolphins MVP and Newcomer of the Year by South Florida media (1996)
AFC Defensive Player of the Month (September 1998)
2× NFL Alumni Association's Linebacker of the Year (1998, 2006)
First-team All-Pro selection by the USA Today, College & Pro Football Newsweekly and Football Digest (1998)
1998 All-Madden Team (1998)
3× Dolphins' Leadership Award (1998, 1999, 2005)
Weeks 1 & 16 2001 AFC Defensive Player of the Week (2001)
Dolphins MVP by South Florida media and fans (2001)
All-Iron Team as selected by CBS analyst Phil Simms (2001)
PFWA Dolphins Chapter "Good Guy" Award (2001)
First-team Pro Football Weekly All-AFC (2002)
First-team Sports Illustrated All-Pro (2003)
Second-team Football Digest All-Pro (2003)
Week 14 AFC Defensive Player of the Week (2005)
All-AFC selection by Pro Football Weekly and the Pro Football Writers of America (2006)
More tackles than any linebacker currently in the Hall of Fame


Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:12 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
NFLJunkie wrote:
Butkus never played in a conference or league championship game during
Thanks, but really have no clue what Butkus has to do with anything. If I had even connected ZT to not playing in championship games as a reason, then maybe I would understand the meaning of this post..

NFLJunkie wrote:
The wussy only played 8 seasons...what's he doing in the HOF?
Actually 9.

Dwight Stephenson played 7+ yrs. Gale Sayers really only played 5+. I guess what that should tell you that greatness is not measured by longevity.


Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:16 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
NFLJunkie wrote:
22 tackles against Baltimore in the playoffs in a losing effort..


22 tackles is impressive, but thanks for providing the game that allows me to show that tackle total while impressive do not tell the story of the play & that 1/3 of those tackles came in the 4th when the game was in hand.

Balt. Avg around 6 Yds per play on tackles made by Zach. Only two plays went for less that 3 yds. 10 plays went for 5 or more yds.

I could only find 20 tackles on profootballreference.

1st Qtr.

Moe Williams right guard for 7 yards (tackle by Zach Thomas)
Jermaine Lewis up the middle for 5 yards (tackle by Zach Thomas)
Jermaine Lewis left end for -1 yards (tackle by Zach Thomas)

2nd Qtr.

Terry Allen left end for 7 yards (tackle by Zach Thomas). Penalty Holding
Terry Allen right guard for 4 yards (tackle by Zach Thomas and Kenny Mixon)
Elvis Grbac pass complete to Jason Brookins for 3 yards (tackle by Sam Madison and Zach Thomas)
Moe Williams up the middle for 4 yards (tackle by Zach Thomas)
Moe Williams up the middle for 9 yards (tackle by Zach Thomas)
Terry Allen up the middle for 2 yards (tackle by Zach Thomas and Tim Bowens)

3 Qtr.

Terry Allen up the middle for 4 yards (tackle by Tim Bowens and Zach Thomas)
Terry Allen up the middle for 4 yards (tackle by Zach Thomas and Morlon Greenwood)
Travis Taylor left end for 15 yards (tackle by Zach Thomas)
Elvis Grbac pass complete to Obafemi Ayanbadejo for 7 yards (tackle by Zach Thomas)

4th Qtr.

Terry Allen up the middle for 8 yards (tackle by Zach Thomas)
Obafemi Ayanbadejo left tackle for 3 yards (tackle by Brock Marion and Zach Thomas)
Terry Allen right guard for 8 yards (tackle by Zach Thomas)
Jason Brookins left guard for 6 yards (tackle by Zach Thomas)
Terry Allen left tackle for 3 yards (tackle by Zach Thomas)
Elvis Grbac pass complete to Sam Gash for 13 yards (tackle by Zach Thomas)
Jason Brookins up the middle for 6 yards (tackle by Zach Thomas and Brian Walker)


Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:35 pm
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
this topic's been beaten to death


Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:48 am
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
swerve13 wrote:
this topic's been beaten to death

I will second that. Time will play this out.


Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:54 am
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
swerve13 wrote:
this topic's been beaten to death


Synopsis of discussion.

Dude #1 - Zach Thomas belongs in the Hall of Fame
Dude #2 - No he doesn't
Dude #1 - Yes he does
Dude #2 - No he doesn't
Dude #1 - Yes he does
Dude #2 - No he doesn't
Dude #1 - Yes he does
Dude #2 - No he doesn't
Dude #1 - Yes he does
Dude #2 - No he doesn't
Dude #1 - Yes he does
Dude #2 - No he doesn't
Dude #1 - Yes he does
Dude #2 - No he doesn't
Dude #1 - Yes he does
Dude #2 - No he doesn't
Dude #1 - Yes he does
Dude #2 - No he doesn't

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Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:02 am
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Post Re: Does Zach Thomas Belong in the HoF?
Thanks we needed your post to conclude this thread.


Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:31 am
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